Repashy Superfood (for cichlids)?
- Thread starter flowerpower
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RD you missed this part of my post where in I addressed compaction through over feeding of pellets and promoted this food as a potentially self regulating form of intake. Basically if you are trying to...greedily... raise your stock(me
) to a sell-able size overfeeding is definitely a potential. I don't think your rebuke to my comment disproves my notion that this product... MIGHT have benefits in ease of care for the busy breeder. Actually your response kinda confirmed that this might have a application in such a scenario. If it works as I percieve it might its one less thing to worry about. And as for fronts floating, I never personally had that problem just bloat. At any rate its heavily documented among gibberosa and early frontosa adopters that they are extremely prone to air intake and resulting float to the point that soaked pellets even could be problematic. I work 8-14 hr days so the prospect of not having to put auto feeders on every tank but rather being able to supplement fish diet with a small gell through the day is really exciting. As for gelatin binding agent I think that the agent in question is indeed important not just anything will yield the same result as that is the #1 difference between this and existing gel products. Love me some NLS, just excited to bolster my options here. Most of my fish get fed a blend of 4 different pellet foods, frozen and DIY food right now.
I've made beefheart with Gelatin before works pretty good if you make it right it would cloud up your water i've seen people use the same method to make veggie and shrimp cubes to.
kamika - I didn't miss that part at all, which is why I stated that if someone is allowing their fish to binge feed, then that becomes a case of operator error, not feed problems. Typically the compaction that you describe is caused from poor digestion due to poorly digestible ingredients, found in lower quality feed.
If overfeeding was such a serious issue, half the fish on MFK would be dead by now.
As far as Cyphotilapia, and pellets, I have never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that pellets (floating or sinking), directly caused float in a fish. Lots of hearsay & speculation over the years, but not a single documented case. You might find the following link interesting. http://www.cyphos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15649
BTW - I know a local cypho breeder that fed floating pellets to several different wild caught colonies, including his Mpimbwe, and over the course of several yrs of feeding floating pellets never once experienced a case of float, bloat, or anything else in any of his fish. He later switched all of his cyphos over to sinking pellets, and maintained them on that diet for several more yrs before selling all of his groups. Again, not a single case of float, bloat, or anything else. You'll read the same thing by numerous cypho breeders who now dismiss pellets as being the cause of float. Many now believe that improper decompression when the fish are collected causes long term internal damage, that later surfaces as float, some feel it is stress related. I honestly have no idea, but tend to sway towards stress triggering it, just as stress triggers bloat in many Rift Lake species.
Either way, there is no direct evidence to prove that pellets cause float, bloat, or anything else in Cyphotilapia. That subject is still debated today, with no real conclusive answer as to the cause.
Carry on ...........
If overfeeding was such a serious issue, half the fish on MFK would be dead by now.
As far as Cyphotilapia, and pellets, I have never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that pellets (floating or sinking), directly caused float in a fish. Lots of hearsay & speculation over the years, but not a single documented case. You might find the following link interesting. http://www.cyphos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15649
BTW - I know a local cypho breeder that fed floating pellets to several different wild caught colonies, including his Mpimbwe, and over the course of several yrs of feeding floating pellets never once experienced a case of float, bloat, or anything else in any of his fish. He later switched all of his cyphos over to sinking pellets, and maintained them on that diet for several more yrs before selling all of his groups. Again, not a single case of float, bloat, or anything else. You'll read the same thing by numerous cypho breeders who now dismiss pellets as being the cause of float. Many now believe that improper decompression when the fish are collected causes long term internal damage, that later surfaces as float, some feel it is stress related. I honestly have no idea, but tend to sway towards stress triggering it, just as stress triggers bloat in many Rift Lake species.
Either way, there is no direct evidence to prove that pellets cause float, bloat, or anything else in Cyphotilapia. That subject is still debated today, with no real conclusive answer as to the cause.
Carry on ...........
RD,
I thought you were done after our last exchange, I even let you get the last word in hoping we could move on to more constructive discussion. But instead, you started over again I really don't understand why you are being such a "hater" here. You say you don't care what people feed their fish, but you have gone out of your way in multiple posts in this thread to basically say that there is nothing my formulas can do that pellets, flakes, or wafers can do.
Can't you just accept that some people might find a use for my unique product...... Oh yeah, you already discredited me and pointed out that gels are nothing new, lots of people make or have made them, and that's another reason there is no need for them....
It seems your whole goal in this thread is to pick my product apart and tell everyone why it is not needed, and if you can't convince them of that, to push how easy it is for someone to do it themselves...... taking the time to break it down and try to tell people it doesn't take any time, they don't need to grind pellets, etc..... What's you motive here? It is way beyond just giving your opinion that someone can do it themselves.
I didn't even come here with a product that competes directly with the products you sell, but it seems obvious that you really want my products to fail, and point out there is no need for a product like this on the market. You, in my opinion are bashing what I have done, falling just sort of saying it. I would expect much more from someone who represents a leading product on the market.
If you don't like what I have come up with, or am trying to do, then that's fine with me, share your opinion, and move on. This thread is one of the most referenced resources for people who are ordering the product, so the more it goes to the top of the forum, and the more people see you giving me a hard time, the better it is for me. Please just let people try my product and decide if they like it for themselves if it might fill a niche for them.
Allen
I thought you were done after our last exchange, I even let you get the last word in hoping we could move on to more constructive discussion. But instead, you started over again I really don't understand why you are being such a "hater" here. You say you don't care what people feed their fish, but you have gone out of your way in multiple posts in this thread to basically say that there is nothing my formulas can do that pellets, flakes, or wafers can do.
Can't you just accept that some people might find a use for my unique product...... Oh yeah, you already discredited me and pointed out that gels are nothing new, lots of people make or have made them, and that's another reason there is no need for them....
It seems your whole goal in this thread is to pick my product apart and tell everyone why it is not needed, and if you can't convince them of that, to push how easy it is for someone to do it themselves...... taking the time to break it down and try to tell people it doesn't take any time, they don't need to grind pellets, etc..... What's you motive here? It is way beyond just giving your opinion that someone can do it themselves.
I didn't even come here with a product that competes directly with the products you sell, but it seems obvious that you really want my products to fail, and point out there is no need for a product like this on the market. You, in my opinion are bashing what I have done, falling just sort of saying it. I would expect much more from someone who represents a leading product on the market.
If you don't like what I have come up with, or am trying to do, then that's fine with me, share your opinion, and move on. This thread is one of the most referenced resources for people who are ordering the product, so the more it goes to the top of the forum, and the more people see you giving me a hard time, the better it is for me. Please just let people try my product and decide if they like it for themselves if it might fill a niche for them.
Allen
Allen, I stated in my initial comment that gel foods can have their applications under certain circumstances, and that I have no doubt that obligate algae eaters such as otocinclus catfish would certainly do far better on a more nutritionally balanced food such as this, compared to more traditional foods, including various fresh greens.
But that doesn't mean that you get a free hall pass on a public forum.
You stated: "I would expect much more from someone who represents a leading product on the market."
Ditto.
I would have been more than happy to leave things where they started off, but certain things posted by both yourself, and one of your vendors (Ted Judy) were just a tad bit over the top for me to simply ignore. Seeing as you have a google alert to your name, then I can only assume that you read Ted's ridiculous "vitamin loss" comments on his forum.
You then stated here;
Initially you stated that you use no glutens, starches, or any other poorly digestible ingredients in of your formulas - until I pointed out that your foods do in fact contain starch. Before the last round of tweaks, they apparently even contained ingredients such as corn meal.
You stated that water content is irrelevant, when in my opinion nothing could be further from the truth. If it's such a non-issue, then as previously asked please post a nutrient analysis based on the finished product, as in once your dry powder has been reconstituted with an additional 75% water. I know, I know, everything is based on a DMB and at your end on the powder package that's all that matters. okay-dokay
You also stated:
As previously stated, you have made a lot of assumptions with regards to digestibility, hydration of pellets once in water, etc, yet there is a massive amount of variables between various dry foods, from their nutrient density, their stability in water, and the amount of gastric acids & enzymes that a fish has to produce to break those foods down once they enter the gut. I can state with 100% certainty that when my fish eat pellets, those pellets do not contain 75% water content, as you have implied. Not even remotely close. Nor are they difficult for a fish to digest, and assimilate.
Is water stability a negative, apparently only in your world Allen. Professionals that work within the aquaculture industry, and those who have spent the better part of their lives studying the science behind most of this "feeding fish stuff" consider the water stability & nutrient density of a quality pellet to be a positive, not a negative.
Don't take any of this personal Allen, I honestly have nothing against you, or your products, I just didn't appreciate the way some of the "facts" were being presented here & elsewhere.
You stated that you use forums like this to design products based on feedback from real people.... where here's my feedback, Allen.
When you come onto a public forum to promote your products stick to the facts about your products, and don't use random numbers, percentages, or anything else about other types of products such as pellets, in order to place your products in some kind of superior light. If your vendors are smart, they'll do likewise because you just never know who you might run across on a public forum.
Over & out.
But that doesn't mean that you get a free hall pass on a public forum.
You stated: "I would expect much more from someone who represents a leading product on the market."
Ditto.
I would have been more than happy to leave things where they started off, but certain things posted by both yourself, and one of your vendors (Ted Judy) were just a tad bit over the top for me to simply ignore. Seeing as you have a google alert to your name, then I can only assume that you read Ted's ridiculous "vitamin loss" comments on his forum.
You then stated here;
Yet that makes about as much sense as what Ted stated on his forum, as your "dry powder" fish food goes through the exact same type of heat as any pellet would. I can make the exact same "dry powder", sans the gel binding agents by simply finely grinding any extruded pellet formula. This is already being done by various manufacturers - fine powder fry food. This food isn't pushed out of an extruder die at tiny micron sizes, it's ground into dust after the pellets have cooled.
Initially you stated that you use no glutens, starches, or any other poorly digestible ingredients in of your formulas - until I pointed out that your foods do in fact contain starch. Before the last round of tweaks, they apparently even contained ingredients such as corn meal.
You stated that water content is irrelevant, when in my opinion nothing could be further from the truth. If it's such a non-issue, then as previously asked please post a nutrient analysis based on the finished product, as in once your dry powder has been reconstituted with an additional 75% water. I know, I know, everything is based on a DMB and at your end on the powder package that's all that matters. okay-dokay
You also stated:
Really? Care to share what studies, papers, or peer reviewed journals we can all find that information?
As previously stated, you have made a lot of assumptions with regards to digestibility, hydration of pellets once in water, etc, yet there is a massive amount of variables between various dry foods, from their nutrient density, their stability in water, and the amount of gastric acids & enzymes that a fish has to produce to break those foods down once they enter the gut. I can state with 100% certainty that when my fish eat pellets, those pellets do not contain 75% water content, as you have implied. Not even remotely close. Nor are they difficult for a fish to digest, and assimilate.
Is water stability a negative, apparently only in your world Allen. Professionals that work within the aquaculture industry, and those who have spent the better part of their lives studying the science behind most of this "feeding fish stuff" consider the water stability & nutrient density of a quality pellet to be a positive, not a negative.
Don't take any of this personal Allen, I honestly have nothing against you, or your products, I just didn't appreciate the way some of the "facts" were being presented here & elsewhere.
You stated that you use forums like this to design products based on feedback from real people.... where here's my feedback, Allen.
When you come onto a public forum to promote your products stick to the facts about your products, and don't use random numbers, percentages, or anything else about other types of products such as pellets, in order to place your products in some kind of superior light. If your vendors are smart, they'll do likewise because you just never know who you might run across on a public forum.
Over & out.
RD, you have either been manipulating or restating what people say or imply instead of crediting people. I don't necessarily believe you do it maliciously but it really reads that way. Trying to type "matter of fact" typically comes of in a rather sarcastic and condescending tone. And you are generally not supportive or positive in your inquisitions rather doubting its validity as a product. You can say you harbor no grudge but it simply didn't read that way for the majority of this thread. Looking around his community involvement has been wide reaching and his feedback varied but as the products have shaped up it is becoming more positive. I think the first thing established in this thread was this is not for large fish, you can try it but that was not the intent or design of this product.
I don't know allot, so I thought I'd get in the middle here and make some novice observations. please don't rip me apart.
This conversation is not fairly structured as in you compare his product to a phantom, if you sighted a "top of the line" brand for direct comparison it might inform the conversation. To the same note I don't think this product is designed to compete against pellet but fill niches, like the tropheous and frontosa ones I sighted or the invert/algae eater one others have pointed out. In general this looks like a great product for fry as it beats getting a fish food feeder for each fry tank and managing that.
Assuming you were referencing NLS
If pellets weren't 10 percent or more ash even in NLS and 40 percent miscellaneous we could have a real discussion here but we are not making fair direct comparisons. To answer the notion that crushed pellets + reconstituted by gel would yield an identical quality product. NO. There are additives in the pellet as I'm sure you know that would account for more filler and therefor less meaningful content. When you account for any, preservatives... you end up loosing to the benefit of the powdered food.
You previously attacked powered food as undergoing the same process as the heated extruded pellet food for destroying nutritional value. I'm actually familiar with this as human vitamins are sorta a side thing, I live with two sales men for different vitamin products and am actually familiar with the different manufacturing processes that I imagine are used to generate the powder ingredients vs the extruded pellet and have to give this one squarely to Allen(again on assumptions for standards). Unless you know of a special extrusion process odds are much of the integrity of the vitamins can be sacrificed. While they might test out fine the way they are bound in the ingredients changes so that they don't absorb in as natural of a fashion. The process that I would assume generates the powder ingredients for the gel should have allot more integrity to it. Not all vitamins are created equal, though a food can test to have more of a vitamin if it is not bound properly within the food/vitamin it will not absorb nearly as readily. In some cases with people it will actually turn a decent vitamin into an agitent, this can result in cancer for humans from something as beneficial as Vitamin B12.
The 3rd ingredient in NLS is wheat flour. Maybe I don't know allot but I recall carbs are wasted on fish so binding with wheat flour doesn't magically add large amounts of protein... a little fiber but not allot else besides carbs, there was some unproven notions that it might strain digestion in fish last I recall. What does that account for 25-30 percent of the pellet? Plus ash and you have almost half of the pellet being essentially wasted on the fish. So if your food content of a top shelf product is 50 percent add water for digestion and you are honestly probably on pretty fair footing. I don't know about fish I'm trying to learn so please correct me, if you can link me to some informative articles on fish nutrition I would be grateful as I sometimes enjoy making my own foods and would enjoy informing myself.
Additionally, I understand nutrition to an extent, grazing for almost every animal(humans included) allows for better absorption and utilization of nutrients you can correct me if fish are the exception. Are the vitamins time release or something special in NLS?
I believe many of the people here who recreationally breed work full time I will sometimes leave my house at 5 am and return at 9pm for 5 days in a row. I simply can't feasibly simulate proper feeding eating behavior with pellet, food distribution machines aren't free and add even more to the burden in my opinion. My business partner in the breeding has a similarly inconvenient schedule with his job so this could REALLY offer a nice solution for my mid day gap in food while having other proposed bonuses.
Overfeeding is not a realistic danger for all fish but there are fish that it is a special concern, saying you know a guy that didn't have a problem isn't really a remedy for me having had issues or knowing dozens of competent keepers who have too. Part of this comes from the occasional miscommunication between me and my friend, this leads to the occasional double feeding
"User error" is not addressing the fact that it is a concern, how does this potentially addressing that not count as a huge plus. RD, I'm happy you know so many keepers who don't have any problems, maybe we are all inept fish keepers(its deffinately a possibility ), the food thing is at best a hypothesis but that doesn't make it any less interesting. Instead of thumbs downing the idea, why not say hey let me know what you experience. I get that you are extremely scientific in your approach to digestion and utilization of fish foods and I've never cut open a fish and done an autopsy. I'm however confused why you disregard the product as viable without scientific evidence to found such dismissal.
I would like to do an informal study on fry, I have two batches of burtoni born 1 week apart. I'll start the older batch on this gel in a couple weeks and compare it to the older stuff on omega one flake and NLS fry pellet. Its the best I can do. If it shows it has an application to fry then great I've really been struggling to get their feeding regiments right.
Outside science there are unfounded holistic value to certain foods we don't yet grasp on a scientific level as such without discrete evidence of a short coming I think there can be more than what the label reveals. I've bought food that boasted great content per lbs before only to have them stink, they either taste nasty to my fish or they simply don't ingest in a fashion that manifests benefits. This guy doesn't have a undue amount of marketing behind him just lots of community feed back that echoes good things. I'm eager to try, his product... It could be a fad, It could also offer another option in my arsenal of fish food solutions.
I don't know allot, so I thought I'd get in the middle here and make some novice observations. please don't rip me apart.
This conversation is not fairly structured as in you compare his product to a phantom, if you sighted a "top of the line" brand for direct comparison it might inform the conversation. To the same note I don't think this product is designed to compete against pellet but fill niches, like the tropheous and frontosa ones I sighted or the invert/algae eater one others have pointed out. In general this looks like a great product for fry as it beats getting a fish food feeder for each fry tank and managing that.
Assuming you were referencing NLS
If pellets weren't 10 percent or more ash even in NLS and 40 percent miscellaneous we could have a real discussion here but we are not making fair direct comparisons. To answer the notion that crushed pellets + reconstituted by gel would yield an identical quality product. NO. There are additives in the pellet as I'm sure you know that would account for more filler and therefor less meaningful content. When you account for any, preservatives... you end up loosing to the benefit of the powdered food.
You previously attacked powered food as undergoing the same process as the heated extruded pellet food for destroying nutritional value. I'm actually familiar with this as human vitamins are sorta a side thing, I live with two sales men for different vitamin products and am actually familiar with the different manufacturing processes that I imagine are used to generate the powder ingredients vs the extruded pellet and have to give this one squarely to Allen(again on assumptions for standards). Unless you know of a special extrusion process odds are much of the integrity of the vitamins can be sacrificed. While they might test out fine the way they are bound in the ingredients changes so that they don't absorb in as natural of a fashion. The process that I would assume generates the powder ingredients for the gel should have allot more integrity to it. Not all vitamins are created equal, though a food can test to have more of a vitamin if it is not bound properly within the food/vitamin it will not absorb nearly as readily. In some cases with people it will actually turn a decent vitamin into an agitent, this can result in cancer for humans from something as beneficial as Vitamin B12.
The 3rd ingredient in NLS is wheat flour. Maybe I don't know allot but I recall carbs are wasted on fish so binding with wheat flour doesn't magically add large amounts of protein... a little fiber but not allot else besides carbs, there was some unproven notions that it might strain digestion in fish last I recall. What does that account for 25-30 percent of the pellet? Plus ash and you have almost half of the pellet being essentially wasted on the fish. So if your food content of a top shelf product is 50 percent add water for digestion and you are honestly probably on pretty fair footing. I don't know about fish I'm trying to learn so please correct me, if you can link me to some informative articles on fish nutrition I would be grateful as I sometimes enjoy making my own foods and would enjoy informing myself.
Additionally, I understand nutrition to an extent, grazing for almost every animal(humans included) allows for better absorption and utilization of nutrients you can correct me if fish are the exception. Are the vitamins time release or something special in NLS?
I believe many of the people here who recreationally breed work full time I will sometimes leave my house at 5 am and return at 9pm for 5 days in a row. I simply can't feasibly simulate proper feeding eating behavior with pellet, food distribution machines aren't free and add even more to the burden in my opinion. My business partner in the breeding has a similarly inconvenient schedule with his job so this could REALLY offer a nice solution for my mid day gap in food while having other proposed bonuses.
Overfeeding is not a realistic danger for all fish but there are fish that it is a special concern, saying you know a guy that didn't have a problem isn't really a remedy for me having had issues or knowing dozens of competent keepers who have too. Part of this comes from the occasional miscommunication between me and my friend, this leads to the occasional double feeding
"User error" is not addressing the fact that it is a concern, how does this potentially addressing that not count as a huge plus. RD, I'm happy you know so many keepers who don't have any problems, maybe we are all inept fish keepers(its deffinately a possibility ), the food thing is at best a hypothesis but that doesn't make it any less interesting. Instead of thumbs downing the idea, why not say hey let me know what you experience. I get that you are extremely scientific in your approach to digestion and utilization of fish foods and I've never cut open a fish and done an autopsy. I'm however confused why you disregard the product as viable without scientific evidence to found such dismissal. I would like to do an informal study on fry, I have two batches of burtoni born 1 week apart. I'll start the older batch on this gel in a couple weeks and compare it to the older stuff on omega one flake and NLS fry pellet. Its the best I can do. If it shows it has an application to fry then great I've really been struggling to get their feeding regiments right.
Outside science there are unfounded holistic value to certain foods we don't yet grasp on a scientific level as such without discrete evidence of a short coming I think there can be more than what the label reveals. I've bought food that boasted great content per lbs before only to have them stink, they either taste nasty to my fish or they simply don't ingest in a fashion that manifests benefits. This guy doesn't have a undue amount of marketing behind him just lots of community feed back that echoes good things. I'm eager to try, his product... It could be a fad, It could also offer another option in my arsenal of fish food solutions.
Gosh in the end no matter how courteous you try to sound in a debate one always sounds like a jerk, especially in text form! Reading my last long post I think I'm a pretentious prick, lol. Inflection fail!
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