Festae- Quality VS Trash!!

[cacichlids]

Jason was talking about my Festae (obviously not bred by me) when he mentioned the deformed mouth pointing downwards and all other deformities

Here they are at 1", 2" and 3"

 

[fishman09]

Seems the problem is that festae have a genetic diversity that when the "deformities" show up it is unfit to consider fish to be "quality" when in most other fish you dont see the diversity in body shape and what not espescially not far removed from the wild. So to me this a thread complaining about the natural genetic dibersity of festae because there are many many fish that are raised similarly
In ponds and bred like these "trash" festae and we dont have any problems for the most part with deformities like were seeing with these festae. Maybe festae arent as genetically developed or concrete as our other cichlids in the hobby and theres really nothing anybody can do about it outside of culling unwanted fish.

Doesnt give breeders the right to mislable fish as f0 and have them be pond bred fish. But i dont see fish adapting mouth structure to thrive in a pond habitat. Seems like something that would take many years and many generations to happen

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[RD.]

Jason was talking about my Festae (obviously not bred by me) when he mentioned the deformed mouth pointing downwards and all other deformities.

Huh? Color me confused, but I don't see any deformaties or what I would personally consider negative traits in that group of fish. One looks like it might possibly be a bit of a runt, but that can happen in any group of grow outs. I recalled seeing these pics in the past & just found the thread, and Jason actually stated that they were looking good.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?435717-Festae-Growth-Update!

Not too sure why you feel that he was referring to you or your fish, but if he was then he must being seeing things or for some reason changed his mind about them after he posted his comment in your past thread.

 

[dogofwar]

The odd-looking ones that RD posted could just have likely become that way (weird mouth, compressed looking) from being raised in poor conditions (too small a tank, high nitrate, etc.) than for genetic reasons.

I think the underlying problem with this thread is that the OP thinks that what he thinks makes a "quality" festae is the same thing that Mother Nature does. Brightly colored, high bodied, strong-mouthed fish in a rocky, clear river are fish (or bird) food. Smaller, greyish, long-snouted ones survive to breed and pass on their traits to the next generation(s).

Which fish do most people think are coolest for an aquarium? The beefy bright orange ones, of course!

I also agree with RD's point that many people would think that cross-varient festae (or other cichlids) are "trash"...regardless of characteristics. With selective breeding for aesthetics, you cross the line from trying to preserve/maintain what Mother Nature created...and you move into the world of fancy fish (flowerhorns, long-fin oscars, super red discus, etc.). Desirable by some, but not by many!

Matt

 

[Gatorxxx420]

Ok it looks as if a few people are confused at what i have said. this thread was made to bring awareness to what is going on with festae being sold with defomities. Not to have a pissing contest saying my fish are better than yours.



And this comment is exactly what im talking about. Ok maybe the color and bars are a personal choice for anyone. but the strong mouths and high bodies do play a part in natural selection of survival of the fittest. and Nobody that i know is linebreeding these festae by means of inbreeding!! im sure its been done. But i do know of festae that are being hand selected from various spawns with particular traits and breeding them to another fish with the same or better traits to pul out better potential. similar to line breeding. Kinda like what im doing with my umbees, breeding this new location X umbee to a rio mag hoping to yield an umbee with the body of a rio mag and the freckles and color of the X.



And that last statement of the pond raised fish is where i believe the downward sloping mouth comes from vs the strong muzzles from wild fish.

this thread i started is an open discussion to help people to be able to determine what is good and what is not. hoping to get them to actually know what they are buying and what deformities are out there and what to look for. This is by no means me trying be to holier than tho!!! If you go back and read my initial post, you will clearly see this has nothing to do with what i personally like in festae. And im not trying to pass my fish off as badass. because its more than clear that there are plenty of people who bought woodland strains, or collected their own and are breeding quality festae. and some people dont understand because they obviously havent collected or experienced what im talking about. and would rather quote something they read or heard about from someone else which makes it completely irrelevant!!

Yes there is deformities in the wild! Yes, its the responsibility of the collectors and importers to inspect their fish prior to shipping. now we obviously know that it doesnt happen all the time and with high numbers of fish being moved there are good possibilities of them being overlooked. The quality of a fish has nothing to do with the f number. it is all genetics. I never once said my fish were great and someone elses is trash. Again like posted in the beginning, i stated that this thread may hurt peoples feelings also not to personaly attack any individuals.

And yes most of the traits i mentioned are what is to be considered what wild ecuador festae look like and is a part of survival of the fittest. First the mouth, a strong mouth is designed to allow festae to eat crustaceans. which adds to their profile. second, the high body is also part of the build meaning the fish is bulky and has good body mass. which aides in the survival game!! obviously the color and bars has nothing to do with that and is more of a personal preference.

My comment is to the bold area. Is it possible some of these breeding practices could very well be causing these deformities? I mean say if Festae A. has a tall body with a shorter face and Festae B. has an elongated body and snout... different looking mouths. Isn't it possible that both of these traits try and show up in some of the offspring? I can't imagine it not being possible. Which if it is true, could you being sending Umbee to the same fate?

I also see these types of mixes as same species hybrids as most of these fish from different locations may never interact in the wild. If it's something for a personal collection then that's fine. I don't see it as an ok thing to alter nature for a few bucks...

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

Apparently people interpret things differently. Maybe some need to read and re-read what I posted. So ill explain again. Yes maybe I could have worded my title a lil differently so it doesn't sound so subjective. But it is what it is now. My main concern has nothing to do with personal preference to how one would think a fish should look. Those traits mentioned were just examples. I could care less about F numbers and that has nothing to do with what im talking about!! What I'm am trying to get at was deformities that are being spread and bred. Cause really the only concern with f numbers would be if the fish are continually bred to same bloodlines, then I would be interested in how far down it goes. If a wild pair spawns and you take f1 fry amd spawn with other f1 fry from completely unrelated fish, they're still clean genes. You can continue this for as long as you like and no matter how far the number goes, as long as what your breeding is unrelated then they are still clean and imo no different than anything from the wild.

Before I knew better I would comment on someones festae saying it looks good or whatever. Which is what rd is referencing. But now I know better and if I don't care for something ill keep my mouth shut. Maybe take another look at those fish cacichlid posted and you will see that they do in fact have humps on tgeur backs, some worse than others. The pic RD posted was the worse one out of yhe group. Cacichlid and i have already discussed this privately. And now I'm speaking up about these festae floating around that I'm seeing. People are always just trying to be polite or sugar coat everything and say, oh your fish is real sweet, or its the best I've seen. And I'm sure this is the same with other fish but right now I'm only talking abput festae. So either people know the difference in what the deformities look like and how a healthy fish is supposed to look like and aren't sayin anything or people just don't know.

Peathenster- there is nothin wrong with duanes festae in tbe pic. In fact your theory may be correct and it is all relative to adaptation to its location. I'm sure his and blessones came from different locations.

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

And for those of you that stated that the selective breeding maybe the cause to these dedormities... just like what I'm doing with my umbees goes to tell me that you don't know what your talking about and have never done this yourself. Everything will have the potential to carry genes with deformities but tell me how reguardless of the selective breeding if you use unrelated fish how its worse than any other breeding. If i really must, ill post pics of the festae i have now which were all selectively bred and you tell me they're deformed LOL!!!

 

[peathenster]

Peathenster- there is nothin wrong with duanes festae in tbe pic. In fact your theory may be correct and it is all relative to adaptation to its location. I'm sure his and blessones came from different locations.

Thanks for the clarifications. I think this may be what some of the confusions (at least my own) were about - natural variations in shape and color vs. deformities. I certainly wouldn't be very happy with the fish in RD's pics.

 

[dogofwar]

No offense, but you can be hard to follow...

It's simple: weird looking festae come from: 1) bad genes (deformities) 2) being raised in sub-par conditions (not genetic) or 3) both.

I hadn't considered the issue of deformities coming from breeding across varients but that's possible, too.

Festaes are the "hot" fish of the moment. People aren't culling enough (whether from bad genetics or conditions). Or selling before deformities are apparent.

Without provenance to the wild, it's simply not possible to know that lines of fish are "totally unrelated" or whether fish are actually from one varient or another. In a lot of fish (e.g. Yellow Head La Ceiba's) all of the fish in the hobby go back to a couple of pairs brought back by a couple of guys. New people selling them doesn't guarantee anything (even if they tell you the fish are wild or F1).

I think you're using the term "clean genes" to mean "like a wild fish"...but wild fish can have genetic anomolies. The main thing is not breeding fish with deformities or other aberrations from the norm. Even if you're breeding siblings. And not breeding lines in which deformities appear down the line (perhaps from recessive genes).

Matt

Apparently people interpret things differently. Maybe some need to read and re-read what I posted. So ill explain again. Yes maybe I could have worded my title a lil differently so it doesn't sound so subjective. But it is what it is now. My main concern has nothing to do with personal preference to how one would think a fish should look. Those traits mentioned were just examples. I could give two ****s about F numbers and that has nothing to do with what im talking about!! What I'm am trying to get at was deformities that are being spread and bred. Cause really the only concern with f numbers would be if the fish are continually bred to same bloodlines, then I would be interested in how far down it goes. If a wild pair spawns and you take f1 fry amd spawn with other f1 fry from completely unrelated fish, they're still clean genes. You can continue this for as long as you like and no matter how far the number goes, as long as what your breeding is unrelated then they are still clean and imo no different than anything from the wild.

Before I knew better I would comment on someones festae saying it looks good or whatever. Which is what rd is referencing. But now I know better and if I don't care for something ill keep my mouth shut. Maybe take another look at those fish cacichlid posted and you will see that they do in fact have humps on tgeur backs, some worse than others. The pic RD posted was the worse one out of yhe group. Cacichlid and i have already discussed this privately. And now I'm speaking up about these festae floating around that I'm seeing. People are always just trying to be polite or sugar coat everything and say, oh your fish is real sweet, or its the best I've seen. And I'm sure this is the same with other fish but right now I'm only talking abput festae. So either people know the difference in what the deformities look like and how a healthy fish is supposed to look like and aren't sayin anything or people just don't know.

Peathenster- there is nothin wrong with duanes festae in tbe pic. In fact your theory may be correct and it is all relative to adaptation to its location. I'm sure his and blessones came from different locations.

 

[dogofwar]

How would you NOT know that crossing varients of a species wouldn't cause deformities...or atleast characteristics that are unwanted?

Ever seen the outcome of breeding multiple varients of Aulonocara stuargranti or other Peacocks? It ain't necessarily pretty...

Matt

And for those of you that stated that the selective breeding maybe the cause to these dedormities... just like what I'm doing with my umbees goes to tell me that you don't know what your talking about and have never done this yourself. Everything will have the potential to carry genes with deformities but tell me how reguardless of the selective breeding if you use unrelated fish how its worse than any other breeding. If i really must, ill post pics of the festae i have now which were all selectively bred and you tell me they're deformed LOL!!!