who has the largest florida gar?

BigJ · Sep 4, 2010

So its better for a 10-11'' Gar to be in a 20 gallon? Than a 750? Sorry as i said no offence but i dont buy it for a minute.. They have a better chance getting hurt in a smaller tank... Seeing as the spook and are skittish... Maybe a 2'' Gar? (Ive never seen one) Maybe i misunderstand?

I know Solomon works with Gar.. And he knows them better than me.. But does he have or ever had them in a 750 gallon? There is exceptions to every rule... If youve had one in a monster tank.. And it didnt grow.. Then i stand corrected... What kind of tanks are the the Gar you work with in? Maybe ponds i assume?

Agin just a question.. No offence....

E_americanus · Sep 4, 2010

BigJ;4441908; said:
So its better for a 10-11'' Gar to be in a 20 gallon?

come on, you still have to use common sense

a good step-wise progression as a YOY gar is growing is to make sure the tank is about 1.5-2x wider than the fish is long. this will allow enough space but still boundary recognition for the fish. i made the same comment in another thread, and the boundary recognition is what helps gars better adapt to captivity and helps prevent breaking backs. shortnose gars in particular are notorious for breaking their backs in larger tanks relative to their size, whereas in slightly smaller tanks they recognize the boundaries and don't fast-start right into the glass as much. much of this back breaking takes place in the first several days in a new/large tank.

BigJ;4441908; said:
Than a 750? Sorry as i said no offence but i dont buy it for a minute.. They have a better chance getting hurt in a smaller tank... Seeing as the spook and are skittish... Maybe a 2'' Gar? (Ive never seen one) Maybe i misunderstand?

I know Solomon works with Gar.. And he knows them better than me.. But does he have or ever had them in a 750 gallon? There is exceptions to every rule... If youve had one in a monster tank.. And it didnt grow.. Then i stand corrected... What kind of tanks are the the Gar you work with in? Maybe ponds i assume?

Agin just a question.. No offence....

myself and a colleague, Richard (who also posts on this forum) have kept gars in various enclosures...aquaria, fiberglass tanks, flow-through systems, etc etc both smaller and bigger than 750g tanks. for the gar research we do we normally keep them in optimal growth environments, whether they are in "monster" tanks or not. most of the recent work (and a research chapter in my dissertation) is on gar growth, and we've monitored this carefully on all species and numerous individuals, often in various conditions. trust me in that our comments on growth are of sound logic and we have plenty of info/experience to back it up.

yes, there are exceptions to rules, but it doesn't matter if you have a huge drip system on a "monster tank" that FL gar is not going to shoot up to 24" in its first year, and it will likely take much longer IF it is going to get even close to that. gars in captivity in aquaria aren't going to reach wild max sizes when raised from early YOY.--
--solomon

xander · Sep 4, 2010

BigJ;4441908; said:
So its better for a 10-11'' Gar to be in a 20 gallon? Than a 750? Sorry as i said no offence but i dont buy it for a minute.. They have a better chance getting hurt in a smaller tank... Seeing as the spook and are skittish... Maybe a 2'' Gar? (Ive never seen one) Maybe i misunderstand?

I know Solomon works with Gar.. And he knows them better than me.. But does he have or ever had them in a 750 gallon? There is exceptions to every rule... If youve had one in a monster tank.. And it didnt grow.. Then i stand corrected... What kind of tanks are the the Gar you work with in? Maybe ponds i assume?

Agin just a question.. No offence....

Hey J, am glad to finally see you in this corner of madness

J, we go pretty far back, so don't take my comments personally (KNH too), it's just what i would say to any other member who posts here.

in actual fact, it probably is better for a 10-11" gar to be in a 20gal than a 750gal. richard had 2 of his cubans of ~10" in a 20 gal (i might be slightly inaccurate on the exact size of the fish and tank, but you get my point). and it's not because he didn't have a larger tank for them. in fact, we covered this topic not 2 days ago. i will quote some of the key points over, and link you to the original thread so that you can read the quotes in the context in which they were posted.

it's true there there are always exceptions to the rule. but then again, one should base his or her actions on the conventional wisdom rather than the exception, no?

the thing about gar is they should be stepped up through appropriately sized tanks rather than dumped in a large sized tank due to the reasons listed below. we're not saying that a gar wouldn't get large in a 750; it would. what we're trying to say is that in our experience (and some here have just too much to ignore), a step wise upgrading of tank size seem to work better for a gars overall growth and well-being compared to simply placing it into a huge tank right away.

xander;4438378; said:
with small (read: YOY) gar, having excessive space can be counter productive and potentially fatal. perhaps especially so for the more skittish species of gar (shortnose). i'll quickly point out some points on keeping a small fish in a big tank in bullet point form as it might be easier to comprehend.

Food source--
depending on how big a tank we're talking about, having too large a tank could negatively impact a young gars growth. yoy gars need to be fed evryday, and having too large a tank could result in them having a tough time locating and or finding food.

Psychological comfort--
again, too large a tank could cause stress to a small gar as it would feel vulnerable to predation. a smaller tank would help a yoy gar feel more secure. covering the sides of the tank, along with adding plants/decor would further improve this. this might be especially so with wild caught gars as they are not used to dealing with the sort of lateral agitation from keeping them in tanks.

Physical safety--
when scared, gars readily and voraciously dart in random directions. given enough space, any gar can gain enough speed so that when it hits into the tank walls, it breaks it's back. take a 6" gar in a 20 gal, when it darts off, it will ram into the tank walls, but not with enough speed to kill itself. however, put the same fish in a 120 gal and you might have a dead fish/one with a broken back. although this is also true with larger gars, they are less skittish (with the exception of shortnose gars, hence the padding on the sides of richard's tanks), so back breaking occurs somewhat less often.

hope that helps. i may be incorrect here and there, so if you see the gar gurus hanging me out to dry....

xander

E_americanus;4439318; said:
this is just in response to the above comments, and nothing personal, so please don't necessarily take it that way:

- you can feel free to disagree with xander on this issue of course, and some of what he said is a bit off, but the majority is correct. so you can disagree, but you would still be incorrect.

- based on years of keeping gars of all species, and insanely lengthy discussions with others who have done the same (richard and i try to meet up at least 1-2x a month when not in field season). we have found that the step-wise progression of tank size works best for gars, and this is primarily due to the back-breaking issue and to an extent feeding.

- you compare to your armatus, but armatus have the same kind of backbone morphology that nearly all other fishes have; gars on the other hand have a unique opisthocoelous vertebrae system, which isn't found in any other fishes except a couple gobies, and from there on it's in some reptiles and birds. so although they may seem to act the same in their darting, the damage potential and morphology are completely different.

- cover is almost always good for gars, so you are right on with that...and i think xander was saying the same thing.

- from a finding food issue...it's easier for a smaller gar to find food in a smaller tank...also less space for a school of minnows to disperse and escape. couple this with the benefits of less-back breaking potential, and the step-wise tank progression is further supported.

it is hard to explain, but most gars take time to learn the boundaries of the tank, but they do learn them...better to increase the tank with the size of the gar so they learn these boundaries and when to stop before ramming the glass. again, this comes from observations with many gars, and we are still just beginning to learn the nuances of their behavior in captivity and on a species-level basis.--
--solomon

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354893

KNH;4441912; said:
I'm not sure I understand why you feel that gar are in more danger of breaking their backs in a larger tank. It seems like it would be the opposite. If the gar flee quickly they have plenty of room before hitting anything in a larger tank. I've read where you (solomon) have indicated that before. Have you had gar break there backs in a large tank? Perhaps its true it just doesn't sound right to me. Food isn't really an issue even in a 750g tank. Food is plentiful and everyone eats enough.

I've had pacu, aros, dorado, id sharks, emperor cichlids, cats, mbu etc all grow much faster than what people post they do in captivity. I personally believe that the gar will also grow at a fast rate. Time will tell and I'll be happy to keep you updated.

Thanks again for your input.

Sol, i don't believe it's good for fishes to grow too quickly either, am i right in saying so?

*Edit*>>Answered in the next post, thanks Sol

i believe the above quotes and post should answer your question. one more point i wanted to put across; gars are specialised fish and should be given specialised care, and not "comm'ed". i learnt the hard way by trying to mix them with gatf, pb etc. you cannot enjoy a stressed fish, and i hope you are able to appreciate your gar as more than a tankmate for some of the fancier fish you have

E_americanus · Sep 4, 2010

KNH;4441912; said:
I'm not sure I understand why you feel that gar are in more danger of breaking their backs in a larger tank. It seems like it would be the opposite. If the gar flee quickly they have plenty of room before hitting anything in a larger tank. I've read where you (solomon) have indicated that before. Have you had gar break there backs in a large tank? Perhaps its true it just doesn't sound right to me. Food isn't really an issue even in a 750g tank. Food is plentiful and everyone eats enough.

I've had pacu, aros, dorado, id sharks, emperor cichlids, cats, mbu etc all grow much faster than what people post they do in captivity. I personally believe that the gar will also grow at a fast rate. Time will tell and I'll be happy to keep you updated.

Thanks again for your input.

i think i responded to most of your comments in the above post, but feel free to let me know if i didn't.

in GREEN - that's great that you've been successful with other fishes, and yes some techniques can be transferred among various predatory fishes in terms of care and growth, etc etc. your gar will likely grow at a fast rate, i'm not disputing that and i don't think others are...i'm just saying it's not going to reach 24" in a year...and IF it does reach close to that size, it will take at least a couple years.

as i mentioned in an earlier post, fast early growth brings that switch from somatic to reproductive growth earlier. this is why (or at least related to) gars in the south mature faster than fish in the north...they have a longer time to grow up to size and make the switch. in the north they have winters to deal with and therefore shorter growing seasons...so it takes them a bit longer to reach the growth switch.--
--solomon

HighBackRTG · Sep 4, 2010

What is the growth rate of florida gar? I know someone who keeps an 8 incher in a 29 gallon tank and he saids it's good for a while. I don't know how long a while is but from what everyone is saying they don't grow very fast do they? Also how long are we looking at to grow a gar pass say even 17 inches?

Lepisosteus platyrhincus · Sep 5, 2010

for a florida its possible to reach 17" in a year(mine did it)
they grow very fast.

KNH · Sep 5, 2010

Lepisosteus platyrhincus,
Interesting that your gar grew 17" the first year but you have been very adamant that FL gar will not reach 24" in a home aquaria and 20" is difficult to obtain. It seems yours is almost there. Do you feel your gar has stopped growing in length after 1 year?

E_americanus · Sep 5, 2010

KNH;4444731; said:
Lepisosteus platyrhincus,
Interesting that your gar grew 17" the first year but you have been very adamant that FL gar will not reach 24" in a home aquaria and 20" is difficult to obtain. It seems yours is almost there. Do you feel your gar has stopped growing in length after 1 year?

i honestly feel like i'm beating my head against a wall here in a way, but there are two major issues here:

1 - as stated several times over, once a gar reaches a certain size (and there is a range to it), it will switch from just regular growth, to a different kind of growth. a major effect of this is GROWTH SLOWS.

2 - related to the first, once a gar's growth slows, there is an asymptotic growth rate effect...the difference between 17" and 20" is very large...and 24" even moreso. gars don't grow much more than an inch or two per year once they reach the drastic slowing point.

those of you that powerfeed your gars (nothing wrong with it ostensibly, it just tends toward certain effects) will have fish that reach a large size quickly, but they will also reach that plateau faster. gars that are kept on a seasonal schedule will often tend to go through the spurts that they naturally do in the wild, and therefore potential for larger growth MIGHT be more feasible.

couple this all with the captivity effects compared to the wild, and you have further basis for why these super-large FL gars are not seen from YOY raised in captivity. no one is raising a YOY FL gar to 54" (supposed wild max, but that is likely off by about 1.5') in the home aquaria...even in a "monster" tank.--
--solomon

PS: edit in red - if the gar reaches the switch point in a year, it will slow down drastically in growth. since conditions we keep fish in in the typical home aquarium are not like the wild (aquaria keeps them at constant temp and growing period, no slow-downs), it is possible for a gar to reach the switch in a year (at least in species that are capable of maturing in a year).
keep in mind that although fish grow throughout their lives (unlike many other vertebrates), they don't grow at the same RATE their entire lives.

E_americanus · Sep 5, 2010

KNH;4444810; said:
Thanks for your answer solomon but I was asking lepisosteus. No need to beat your head against a wall, I understand your position.

no problem, i look forward to seeing what his explanation is for you as well.

and of course i wanted to use the emoticon...

:wall:

...and GO BLUE

--
--solomon

Polypterus · Sep 5, 2010

Go Spartans.....


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who has the largest florida gar?

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