Vieja zonatus and regani

RD.

RD.

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I think that anyone that is truly interested in keeping these fish at their best, would be wise to read what Lee Nuttal recommends. He tends to agree with Duane as far as tank size goes for a comm. The tank in the following pic is approx 300 gallons, 8ft x 4ft x 2ft tall.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3493


You’d probably not get away with this in a small tank. What’s the smallest size you’d recommend for keeping Central American cichlids?

Tank size is dependant on which genus of cichlids you wish to keep. Paratheraps and similar larger species should be kept in a 16m/6’ tank minimum, with a width at least 0.6m/2’ Smaller species like Archocentrus, Cryptoheros and Thorichthys can be kept comfortably in at least 1.2m/4’. The bigger the better really, as this will ensure less aggression issues, especially when community set-ups are involved
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Can one do this in smaller tanks? Of course, but the smaller you go the trickier things become, and at some point (at least to me personally) the fish just don't look comfortable. I mean how interesting is it to watch a pair of adult CA or SA cichlids that are 10-12" defending an 18x24 piece of a tank that they spend most of their life living & breeding in?
IMO that's not fishkeeping, that's fish hoarding, and I have seen my fair share of that over the years, including here on MFK. Some people actually receive awards for these types of set ups!


And Quo, while regani are a bit smaller in overall length, they still get pretty hefty. Check out Lee's male! A single male with some various target/dither CA species could work in a 125, with a male/female you better hope for a strong bond, and keep a divider handy. More than one male specimen from this genus, out of the question, unless you enjoy bloodsport. I would NOT add native species such as sunfish to this set up, wrong temps for the two species.


FYI ..... that male Zo of Mo's was 14" when that pic was taken, and lived solo in a 100 gallon tank. And this will give you an idea of how he filled that space.
http://modevlin.zenfolio.com/p221875619/h3f1165f8#h32f4074c
 
M

Mythic Figment

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xraycer said:
You're right, there are plenty of opinions on an off the net, but when well seasoned, highly knowledgeable members like RD and Duanes give advices, you should listen.
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As a general rule, more experienced keepers should be paid more attention to when giving advice, but we both know that this attention also breeds vanity. Discus keepers tend to be the worst in this regard. The elitists who believe in one way only and doing it any other way makes you a terrible keeper. Those people suck. LOL This forum is nice in that there aren't too many of those people here. Duanes has given me fair and accurate advice on many species in the past and I enjoy picking his brain. :) He and Ryansmith have been my points of authority when it comes to the peaceful SAs I have been keeping in the last few years. I think everyone should have a 'role model' of sorts in this hobby. Someone who keeps the standards of the hobby in high standing.


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RD.

RD.

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I'm no fish whisperer, I just like to approach this hobby with common sense, and more of an attitude of not what can I do, but more what should I do.

Which is exactly why I used Lee's set up as an example of what one should probably be striving for if they want to do a proper comm tank with large CA's such as this genus. Even in set ups that large bad things can happen at the drop of a hat, so it's always a balancing act of sorts when you have multiple large fish, with multiple large personalities.

With advice like that hopefully less people will have to eat their fish. :)
 
Q

Quo Vadis

Gambusia
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Good points, but again the problem with cichlids and sayings this will/won't work, is they are individuals. My synspilum though not full grown are a decent size and are still pushovers, which is different that what I've heard from many people on them. Over all they are very peaceful, even to fish the same size and shape. So whether two different species would coexist is iffy, but dependent on the individuals. I do think smaller cichlids help divert aggression and keep harmony in the tank though, ime.

Actually sunfish are fine in tropical temps. While they can withstand cold temps they do not, like Urugauyan cichlids, need a cool off period. Sunfish are established all over the southern US (E.g. In southern FL) and into Central America (not naturally but introduced), alongside cichlids.

RD. said:
And Quo, while regani are a bit smaller in overall length, they still get pretty hefty. Check out Lee's male! A single male with some various target/dither CA species could work in a 125, with a male/female you better hope for a strong bond, and keep a divider handy. More than one male specimen from this genus, out of the question, unless you enjoy bloodsport. I would NOT add native species such as sunfish to this set up, wrong temps for the two species.
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RD.

RD.

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Good points, but again the problem with cichlids and sayings this will/won't work, is they are individuals.
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Something that most of us have been stating all along, but regardless of that tank SIZE does matter in these types of comm tanks. That is a simple fact. The behaviour of juvenile fish isn't specifically what we are discussing, it is what happens as males reach sexual maturity, and for that matter even females. The smaller the space, the more likely the problems one is going to face.


As far as sunfish, I have personally kept sunfish in captivity and can state from experience that prolonging the photoperiod and raising the water temperature, can cause captive specimens to become sexually active year round. Most will kick into breeding mode @ 71-72F. That might be fine from your perspective, but most people that keep native sunfish in "aquariums" will probably not agree. Increased breeding mode typically equates to increased aggression, even if no females are present. That's a LOT of added stress on both males & females year round, something that at least for some of the sunfish species is in no way natural to the fish. IMHO if a species has a cooling off period in its native habitat (not the canals of Florida) then it's best to replicate that in ones aquarium, exactly as one should do with some of the Urugauyan cichlids.

Either way I personally wouldn't keep sunfish with CA cichlids, but maybe that's just me.
 
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jaws7777

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duanes said:
I have found most Vieja are non-agressive with smaller tank mates, but as soon as you put 2 non-mated adult, similar sized cichlids with Viejas, especially only 2, in a small tank (under 200+ gallons) there is a problem.
I had a 6-7" V regani in a 150 gal get very aggressive, so I gave it to a friend, who put it in his 225 gal, it killed a much larger 10" H. carpintus, then went to work on, and killed a very large (@12") Amphilophus labiatus.
I also had the same type situation with an argentea, it was very mild mannered until it hit about 7", first wiping out all other Viejas, then killed a managuense, and dovii.
The only time they generally work for me, is if the tank is in the 300 and up gallon range.
Because alone after killing all tankmates, the regani would spend all day hiding, my friend ate him.

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DUANES thanks for the info im a little confused now lol do you think it would be ok in a 125 ? with some non cichlid tank mates with a single large vieja ?


Quo Vadis said:
Have you considered Heterospila? They stay smaller, are milder, and in my limited experience is less spooky than my much bigger synspilum. That said, have you looked into Sunfish as wet pets? They don't need heaters, can be gorgeous (pumpkinseed, longears) and get very tame. They also can mix well with cichlids if you want to go that route. In my very mixed "grow out" tank the fish that are the most interactive with me if I stick my hands in the water and play with them are the Oscars (Crassipinnis, one normal one) all the various sunfish (pseed, bluegill, rock bass, green sunfish), the baby red ceibals (have to move them to an I heated tank now that winter is coming), a flier cichlid, sajica, and, weirdly, a lone yellow lab. All these will almost let me pet them and will gather around my hand and inspect it.
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quo thanks I never heard of heterospila very good looking fish gonna read up on it

RD. said:
Using that logic a 50 gallon tank would be more than enough for a full grown male. (36x18x19")

That would probably fly if you asked the same question on a SE Asia forum, where flowerhorn breeders keep 12"+ fish in tanks the size of shoe boxes. Using those types of standards the minimum tank size becomes the min size one can cram a fish into without it becoming stunted, or deformed. Now we are really getting into the true meaning of minimum.
Jaws, your response just brought this discussion full circle for me. You never were looking for an answer from those with hands on experience with this genus, you were seeking someone that would tell you it's ok to do what you were already planning to do. Now that you found that one person, you're good to go buddy! And by all means add a school of clown loaches, and school of SD's, and maybe a foot long common pleco as well. Then go out and get yourself a "group" of vieja, and sit back and enjoy your new comm tank.


Vive la différence!
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RD not sure why your making that statement I simply asked a question about keeping large centrals which I have no experience with if I were looking for a particular answer that would imply that I had a small amount of knowledge about them...sorry "buddy" but I have better things to do and wouldn't have asked the question. not sure why you didn't just answer the question by stating what you thought was an acceptable tank size or just move on instead you just blasted the question itself until your reply at around 1130 today when u decided to post something regarding the actual question...relax "buddy" everyone knows your smart..no need to be sarcastic though
 
RD.

RD.

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Everything you need to know has already been answered by multiple members. Your question/s have changed several times as this thread has evolved, so it was kind of difficult to answer THE question.

Do what you want, you're going to anyway.
 
Q

Quo Vadis

Gambusia
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Re sunfish: Hmm I have never had that experience. I'm a member of Nanfa because I keep a lot of native fish and on there they always say that the cool down period is what ges them into spawning mode, but that if you don't want to breed them then you don't need to do it. That has been my experience too. I have sunfish in three tanks and two of the tanks they share with cichlids. And sunfish are native to the southern US, FL has like 5 native sunfish, it is only CA that they are an introduced nonnative.
 
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