Amphilophus margaritifer

[Modest_Man]

Both of which look absolutely nothing like the fish posted up by Don. I'm not looking to find the "real" A. margaritifer, I want to find out what that fish is that Don posted.

In the BB that talks about A. margaritifer, kindly posted up by Mo states "Don Conkel published a picture of a fish he claimed was A. margaritifer (Conkel, 1993), but Miller wrote that the slides were labeled Rio San Pedro (Wessel, Pers. Comm.). Miller thought that the fish was actually from the west, or Pacific, slope of Guatemala."

http://www.aquamojo.com/misc/A.mphilophus margaritifer.pdf

Have you done any collecting on the Pacific side?

Here's a map, http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/guatemala.jpg the Rio San Pedro is Northwest of Lago Peten-Itza, but not by much, so I'm not sure what they mean by western slope.

 

[fishfarm]

I honestly do not believe that is a wild species of cichlid. If Don has them breeding in a pond in Florida I'm sure he would sell you some. Ken

 

[saltydog_1]

ken that robertsoni is amazing!

 

[GMFISHNUT]

Really? Aside from mis-identifying 2 species and then acknowledging it, I dont think I would agree with that statement at all.

He has written books that even Wayne Weibel, chairman of the American Cichlid Association, consider "the only comprehensive book available in the English language on Central American cichlids", as well as discovering and naming more than a handful of species.

Ive not known of him to push hybrids or anything of the sort. I have however, seen inexperienced and envious people that dont have the knowledge and experience he has, play smear tactics with his findings and classing of cichlids.

Well said. I agree with you completely!!!

 

[Modest_Man]

I got an email response back from Don in regards to this mystery cichlid.

Jamie,
Thanks for your e mail concerning A. margaritiferum. The Amphilophus group of cichlids was originally referred to as Astatheros Pellegrin, 1904. In 1966, Dr. Robert Miller restructured this large group and named it Amphilophus. In the 1997 work, Molecular Systematics of Middle American Cichlid Fishes and the Evolution of trophic-Types in 'Cichlasoma (Amphilophus)' and 'C. (Thorichthys)', Roe, Conkel, and Lydeard recommended that the substratum-sifting clade of the section 'C. (Amphilophus)' be placed in the resurrected genus Astatheros.
In January 1983, Dr. Paul Loiselle, Vann Mitchell and myself collected 6 specimens of the fish pictured, A. margaritiferum, in Lago de Peten Itza on the island of Flores. The photo on my website is one of those six specimens. Mr. Salvin collected one 6 1/2" specimen in 1862 from this same lake in Guatemala. This specimen is located in the British Museum of Natural History. In Dr. Guenther's work on the fishes of Central America, there is a line drawing of that fish which I have attached. C. Tate Regan's 1906 paper, Biologica Centrali-Americana, a good description of this fish is given (see attachment). Salvin's, Guenther's and Regan's works very closely describe the fish I refer to as As. margaritiferm. While I cannot say with 100% certainty this is the exact same fish, I am not an icthyiologist, I am quite confident it is. I do know for a fact it is not a hybrid. All 6 wild extracted specimens were identical as well as their offspring. Why these so called "arm chair experts" choose to beleive otherwise is beyond me, but perhaps it is because they were not as fortunate to locate or collect it or because I am a cichlid farmer. No other expedition by any one has produced a more similar specimen to that of Salvin's than mine. In addition, in July of 1989, Dr. Robert Miller personally looked over this group of fishes on my Tampa farm and also felt it to be the legendary A. margaritiferum.
Unfortunately, this population of fish is no longer in captivity. I have a farm in Frontera, Guatemala and have made 3 expeditions to Lake Peten since 1998 for more broodstock with no luck. I hope I have enlightened you with the facts.

Kind Regards,
Don Conkel

If he indeed caught 6 individuals from lake Peten and then bred them and the 6 fish and their offspring all looked the same it kind of throws the hybrid theory (natural or not) out the window. And I do agree that the fish Don pictured looks a whole lot like the holotype than any of the other fish thrown out there so far.

But with three trips there and no more fish it's not looking good for me to get my hands on some. .

Now time to email Dr. Paul Loiselle...

 

[kookiejar2]

Interesting discussion going on here..... and I find it better to look for the truth by research and knowledge sharing rather than just passing it off as a hybrid.
Modest man, I like your approach on this.... please shoot that email to Dr. Loiselle.... it might get pretty interesting!

p.s: the fish in the pic has as much chance of it being a hybrid as being naturally occurring..... so let's dig in as much as possible.

 

[Modest_Man]

I just sent a nice long email back to Don with a bunch more questions. In the morning I'm going to email Dr. Losielle and Rusty Wessel, as what Rusty is quoted as saying about Miller and A. marg. in the BB article is in direct opposite from what Don says about Miller and A. marg. in the email...

 

[Modest_Man]

Another response from Don if anyone cares.

Jamie,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I sold the fish as margaritiferum for 3 or 4 years in the late 80's, around the world. Unfortunately, like rhytisma and the related calobrensis, they are delicate and subject to skin irritations if not kept in in good condition. They're for advanced aquarists as most riverine fishes are. Though I caught them in 83 in a small drainage canal flowing into the Peten, I was told by a fisherman they were very rare there and were mainly found in the surrounding streams. This Mayan called both robertsoni and margaritiferum (maybe I should call it sp. Peten) "tepemachine". The lake in 1983 was up 10-12 feet. Paul Loiselle mentioned to me that no one knew why. The first floor of all lakeside buildings (houses, stores and restaurants) were 3 to 4 feet under water. Catching fish was so easy inside the buildings.
The lake during the past several years is back to normal levels. It is very "tanic" in color, has been overfished, and polluted. The Guatemalan government has built several large acre sized pens around the lake's banks to breed Petenia splendida for food fish. The "Mojarra", Cichlasoma, are much lessor in numbers now. All of them. Find attached a photo of a stringer of cichlids I took a couple of years ago. That was a day's catch. The Mestizo fisherman told me he used to catch that amount in an hour 10 years ago. The Astatheros grouping appears to have taken the biggest "hit" in population numbers over the past 10-15 years. No longer can we locate or capture margaritiferum or rhytisma. They are both probably extinct. Calobrensis, rostratum and the alfari form from Lake Arenal in Costa Rica are at near extinction levels. Our collectors find very few of them any more. Pollution and the resulting loss of food source are to blame. These fishes are very specialized.
You will have to speak with Rusty to get his feelings why Robert changed his mind about my specimens. Bob never indicated that to me. I personally used the works of Regan, Guenther, Bussing and Miller when I collected and published my works. That was the best of any info available. Maybe my "margies" were an unidentified species. However, the reported description, reported location and specifically the drawing of margaritiferum led me to beleive I had found it and until proved otherwise, I will feel this way. The literature I speak of matched the other 100 plus species I have collected in more than 50 collecting trips to Central America and Mexico. The photo's I have seen of Wessel's animals look very different to me, more longimanus like. Rusty does come up with some different and rare animals. He's been doing this a while also and is reputible. It's too bad we cannot get the mitochondrial dna of the preserved holotype specimen. It's preserved in formalin. Only matching body meristics will let us know now.
Are you personally in the hobby? What's your experience with these types of fishes or any other American cichlids? If I can ever be of any future help, please let me know.
Best Regards,
Don Conkel

 

[Ripdevil]

either way, cool fish, it would look good in my tank, therefore I want one!

 

[artemis1]

Darn. That was a cool fish.