Changing in filration, Critisim needed.

[nfored]

Many post, and much research on this form suggest, that turn over rate need is greatly dependent on filter type and design. I have been thinking I can run my tank on a much lower turn over rate, if I redesign the sump, and use better Bio media.

Typically in a sump cheaper media such as bioballs and lava rock can be used, this is because you can have more space to use more media. So you are not forced to buy high density media like you would in a canister.

Also the true effectiveness of bio media is contact time with the water, in sumps the contact time is short, the time it takes the water to trickle down. This is why high turnover rate is need, if you can't get long contact time, make the time it takes the water to get back to the bio media short.

So if you where to design a sump where the contact time is longer, you can have slower turn over rate.

So here is my Idea of a redesigned sump.

Instead if dividing the section top to bottom, forcing the water to fight gravity, and loss of total sump water capacity, divided them from side to side. This way you still have the whole capacity of the sump, also as long as the spacing is at least 6 inches you will never restrict flow.

The bucket is the only enclosed space, this is where the water will enter the sump and contact the mechanical filter; This will be the only bypass free place. Now I no we have all be taught bypass is bad, and bypass free is good. This is not 100% true, for mechanical filtration this is true you need no bypassing since dirt is not effected by osmosis. However what is important to the fish is the water parameters,and this is effected by osmosis. If you take 50 gallons of water out of a 100 gallon tank, filter it so it has zero pollutants then place it back in the tank, the water is 50% pilutant free do to osmosis.

So why is this important in my design? because you will only line the bottom of the Maze with biomedia. The water that dose contact the biomedia will have a prolonged contact time, removing the pollution more effectively; this will in turn lower the pollution in all the water through osmosis. You get two benifits here slower movement is better for mechanical filtration, the slower water means more contact time for the biomedia this is also a plus. also you can use a lower powered pump for the filtration, and then use ultra low power power heads for circulation.

Attached is an example.

 

[Pharaoh]

This looks quite similar to some setups I have seen. I would worry about the collection of detritus underneath the biomedia for one, then water level would be my other concern. Running the water level so high could increase the risk for flooding/overflowing.

There is also discussion on how bio media is more effective when exposed to oxygen such as with wet/dry systems. That is also something to consider.

 

[nfored]

I never thought about the dirt collecting under the media I did think about the O2 needs, I though bubblers would help. The water level doesn't have to be high, I have had my share of floods and always take pro cautions now, my ex girlfriend had my head when I ruined the carpet when I first got started.

The statement about using the whole sump, was just saying that when you have vertical compartments you section off the sump and there for have less water storage for the pump compartment. You would run the sump at normal levels, but with this setup you have extra room. for example if you ran the sump at 50% its level in this setup you would have the water volume of the whole 50% free to the pump. When you have vertical departments the pump department only has that departments water capacity. I learned this the hard way If you have a big strong pump it can pull air down from deeper levels, so you require the water level to be high.

So on a normal setup lets say you have to have the water level in the pump department at 25% to keep air out. Well you might have to have that compartment be at 50% capacity when the pump is off to ensure when its running that it is no lower then 25%. The capacity required in the off state is greater the smaller the pump compartment is.

In my setup since I am using horizontal maze the whole sump volume can be used so I can have the off capacity at maybe 35% of the sump level. This gives me more room to prevent flooding.

The media could be raised off the bottom about 2 inches to allow dirt to fall under it and flow away.

 

[Pharaoh]

The theory seems solid. With some minor adjustments, you might have something going. How soon are we going to see a sample in action?

 

[nfored]

I am thinking I can start construction on something here in the next couple weeks. I just wanted to get a good discussion going to work out the details. I have also learned the hardway that starting work without taking all the factors in to account. leads to sloppy bubble gum and ducktap fixes and more money and time down the road.

So far it seems we need to account for getting more O2 to the submerged media, and account for dirt. One thing I think will be essential is high quality and high density biomedia.

 

[nfored]

I have a prototype built, couldn't wait hehe. Any way I I don't have any of that nice ceramic media yes so I can't throw it on the tank just yet.

I built it out of a 55 gallon tank, and some 24" x 12" x .25" sheets of scrap glass I had laying around. I still need to go buy some PVC pegboard to put on the bottom to raise the media off the ground.

For the bubblers I though I would use 3 of those flexable bubble wands, I was also thinking since the name of the game is effeicancy, why not incorprate an algae scrubber also.

I will try to get pictures up today.

 

[nfored]

I was going to buy the plastic peg board to lift my filter media up off the bottom of the sump. But got to thinking If I used the plastic guards you put over you gutters it might work better.

I have some of these and the have slits across them but the slits are at an angle with a protruding plastic edge. So while water is flowing under the guard it will hit the angled edge and force water along with air up through the media? basically giving me a two for one effect water naturally flowing through the media plus water forced up through it.

I got pictures last night I will upload them when i get home in a couple hours.

 

[dr_sudz]

I actually could see the side to side action working very well with a marine system for getting rid of Micro bubbles. I usually see ups and downs but if the side to side would allow the water to have longer hang time to allow the bubbles to escape without creating more as the water falls back down the baffles. Any thoughts on if this would work?

 

[Bee0912]

Ok this has me hooked but. If i am running a normal old school wet/dry(water in through a sponge back up to a drip plate over boballs and out the bottom) at 500GPH v. 1000GPH. On the 500GPH wouldent the water go through the sump 1/2 as many times but 2X the time in the media. were the 1000GPH the water would go through the media 1/2 as slow but 2X as many times. So in theory all you would be loosing in the 500GPH setup is O2 from the sump in the water because the water level in the sump would be the same? Wow i hope that someone can understand me!

 

[basslover34]

The theory is there and has been addressed before, there are lots of sump systems out there that have several media chambers and run exactly the same way. But there is still the question of which one is more efficient, some people will say that contact time is more important than speed of flow, personally I'm a big fan of the idea that small tanks need higher turn over rates than large ones... but all of this is negated by the fact that a well established tank doesn't need any turn over at all ( I have several tanks that run filter less due to the amount of bacteria within the tank itself). Most tanks are not in desperate need of their filters for anything more than breaking the water surface for gas exchange (this is not to say all tanks of course just the ones that are well established)

This has been a hot debate for many many years, old schoolers will be more in favor of the low-slow turn over while a lot of youngins will follow the More is better side of the debate.