Do female cichlid have shorter lifespan?

[jjohnwm]

No, it's quite obvious in many cases, has clearly recognizable symptoms, and has been well documented. There's also a fair bit of aquaculture science literature on it-- which I've researched in years past trying to figure it out-- as researchers have tried to determine causes, how to treat, prevent, etc.

I prefer not to argue and don't like to be this blunt, but you've simply got this wrong. Yes, it is rare in many species and you may have never seen it yourself, but that hardly makes it a myth. As I said, some species, or some cultivated derivations of species, are more susceptible to it than most. I'm simply not going to argue over which species see it more than most species in which it's typically rare. Of course, like anything it may be potentially be misdiagnosed by some, but there's not much mistaking it when you have real-life experience. Almost none at all, really. If anything I've seen some who aren't familiar with the condition not recognize what it is, even when it's fairly apparent to an experienced eye.

There's not much mistaking seeing a female fish that's quite obviously carrying eggs and on schedule in her spawning cycle subsequently fail to spawn, gradually swell up in the abdomen, then in the genital area, become listless, start breathing fast, have a genital area rupture, sometimes releasing a combination of puss and damaged/decaying eggs, then quickly go downhill from there, usually leading to the death of the fish. Go through this a few times, or see it for yourself, or have some obvious near misses where you were able to save the fish, and you learn to (or darn well better learn to) recognize the earlier stages when there are much better odds of saving the fish.

...Or little mistake in seeing a female fish in a susceptible species start down this road before you notice, get to a dangerous stage of it by the time you do, but being to save her because you know what you're doing.

Very interesting, thanks for posting this.

A question: do the females thus afflicted ever manage to re-absorb the eggs on their own, without intervention on the part of the aquarist? Or must steps be taken to assist?

Female snakes would occasionally become egg-bound, and in many cases the inert "slugs" would be disposed of by the snake's body this way. This was a very easy condition to diagnose, as individual eggs could usually be felt with the fingers while gently handling and manipulating the animal. One hoped that they would disappear on their own...but if they did not, it was a problem.

Again, not particularly common, but enough so that if I were looking for a single snake to keep as a "pet" with no thoughts to eventual breeding, I and many others would often give preference to a male to avoid the whole issue.

 

[neutrino]

Re-read - I never said it was a myth, I said it was so rare it comes close.

It certainly is not common enough in most species to be a considered a general consideration of a potentially shorter lifespan in females. Anything is possible, of course. But it's not nearly as big a concern in most species as it seems some sources would have people believe.

I agree with what I've underlined as true for most species. Also, in those in which it's a known issue it would technically be an issue affecting life expectancy rather than life span.

I understood what you said. However, had you spent over a dozen years on a forum with over 5000 international members, including breeders, importers, and many highly qualified aquarists, where it was a frequent concern for treatment, every so often someone lost an expensive fish to it, and, in an effort to help that community, you spent many hours researching the subject in various sources, including the science literature, I suspect you might also have wanted to counter the notion and generalization that it "technically CAN happen but almost NEVER does" or that "it's almost a myth." It may be close to unheard of in some fishkeeping circles or among many species, but it's actually far from being a myth.

 

[neutrino]

A question: do the females thus afflicted ever manage to re-absorb the eggs on their own, without intervention on the part of the aquarist? Or must steps be taken to assist?

My understanding from reading is that female fish normally do reabsorb unreleased eggs and it's a natural part of the process. What I've seen in Cyphotilapia, particularly the gibberosa species from the Congo region (for which it's not an uncommon issue), is when something does start to go wrong-- evident by the first few of the symptoms I described-- it's possible in the early stages for the fish itself to recover on its own, but it can also be risky to just let it run it's course if you see symptoms while eggs are developing (female Cyphotilapia with eggs can be discernible some while before they're ready to spawn).

After hearing a lot of opinions on it I researched it for myself, including plenty of goldfish, betta, and koi forums, but more importantly in the science literature-- it can be an issue for fish farmed salmonids, which is where I found most of the science literature. Much of it was devoted to possible causes, of which there are several, running the gamut from nutrition, pH, temperature, stress, breeding too much, lack of males to spawn with, etc. Most of it didn't help much, but after trying different things what proved to be the solution with my kapampa gibberosa was adding some Epsom Salts with regular water changes, more when I knew a potential spawn was approaching, more if there was any hint of an issue, and a lot when I saw the characteristic signs of distress. I didn't lose any females to it after this, including a few occasions (during the 20 plus years I kept and bred kapampa) where the fish was in a dangerous phase before I noticed-- it wasn't unusual for females to lay low at times (out of the male's way, away from a more aggressive female, etc), so you could not see one much for a while (except feeding) without thinking something was wrong. Aside from the usual properties attributed to Epsom Salts, Lake Tanganyika is higher in magnesium than the other lakes (Epsom Salts being magnesium sulfate) and ime they benefit from it, especially in reproductive health.

I'd add this, some have and breed "blue zaire frontosa" for years and rarely, if ever, have an issue, while some would seem to fight it frequently. Mine, F1 from the original wild import of kapampa to the US (1990, as I recall) and the next generation F2 I bred, were definitely susceptible to it, even with Epsom Salts in the tank. So I suspect a genetic component.

 

[Sinister-Kisses]

My apologies - I didn't take Lake Tanganyikan frontosa into consideration when replying to a post in an American cichlid forum.

 

[neutrino]

My apologies - I didn't take Lake Tanganyikan frontosa into consideration when replying to a post in an American cichlid forum.

Whether you meant that sarcastically or not, I call a truce. We all have our areas of knowledge and none of this was personal or about winning an argument, but so that someone reading the thread doesn't go away believing egg impaction can practically never happen. The original question said "female cichlids" without reference to region and not everyone who reads the thread will only ever keep American cichlids, so not ruling out being egg bound, no matter the symptoms or species, may save a fish someday.

 

[Hybridfish7]

No, it's quite obvious in many cases, has clearly recognizable symptoms, and has been well documented. There's also a fair bit of aquaculture science literature on it-- which I've researched in years past trying to figure it out-- as researchers have tried to determine causes, how to treat, prevent, etc.

I prefer not to argue and don't like to be this blunt, but you've simply got this wrong. Yes, it is rare in many species and you may have never seen it yourself, but that hardly makes it a myth. As I said, some species, or some cultivated derivations of species, are more susceptible to it than most. I'm simply not going to argue over which species see it more than most species in which it's typically rare. Of course, like anything it may be potentially be misdiagnosed by some, but there's not much mistaking it when you have real-life experience. Almost none at all, really. If anything I've seen some who aren't familiar with the condition not recognize what it is, even when it's fairly apparent to an experienced eye.

There's not much mistaking seeing a female fish that's quite obviously carrying eggs and on schedule in her spawning cycle subsequently fail to spawn, gradually swell up in the abdomen, then in the genital area, become listless, start breathing fast, have a genital area rupture, sometimes releasing a combination of puss and damaged/decaying eggs, then quickly go downhill from there, usually leading to the death of the fish. Go through this a few times, or see it for yourself, or have some obvious near misses where you were able to save the fish, and you learn to (or darn well better learn to) recognize the earlier stages when there are much better odds of saving the fish.

...Or little mistake in seeing a female fish in a susceptible species start down this road before you notice, get to a dangerous stage of it by the time you do, but being to save her because you know what you're doing.

It's less of the male pressuring the female to make more eggs that stresses her, more him pressuring her to breed if that makes sense. Same deal for pulling eggs or wrigglers. Females (of most substrate spawning cichlids at least) will produce eggs idly every 2-3 weeks. I've had pairs spawn while they already had 3 week old fry. It only becomes a problem when the male wants to make more, and the female just wants to raise her existing offspring. Taking the fry that would normally be there at the 2-3 week mark (when the next batch of eggs is idly ready) gives them the idea to replace them right as that time hits as well.