How many american cichlids can go into a 125g?

[Zathamos]

With cichlids, the question is not really how many will fit into a certain volume of water, but how many will coexist territorially on the given amount of floor space.
Whether the dithers are SDs or rainbows really doesn't change that territorial equation, as long as adequate filtration and water change schedule are adhered to.
And ceibals are not tropical cichlids, they prefer a cool down for a few months, that the other cichlids on your list do not. If you were to keep ceibals in the tank for 8 or 9 months, and then put it in an unheated tank for while, should be OK.
When I tried to keep ceibals at tropical temps all year, their health suffered. I have found keeping them in unheated tanks with other subtropicals, where temps drop into the low 60s works best.

Thank you for your advise. Thanks to your input I will not do the red ceibal. I love their colors and everything, and its not a matter of having spare tanks, we have tons. But I worry about removing and re-adding him yearly. When it comes to re-adding I would be a little worried he could never make it up the hierarchy of the tank and would get bullied if not stressed to the point of dying. I am not going to put a fish through torture so that I can look at him and admire him. I want my fish to be somewhat happy and relaxed.

 

[Zathamos]

At adult sizes, your current stock is maxed out. However, since you have small juveniles, you can definitely add more to the tank and rehome some cichlids as they grow and you choose which ones to remove. It will give you the opportunity to see who gets along, which will help in creating a peaceful setup of adults. I would warn that doing so will probably result in the lose of a few cichlids due to territorial aggression as they grow. If you're lucky, you might get them rehomed before such issues occur.

I will say your current stock and intended additions have a very wide range of sizes and temperaments. The smallest species I see will be about 5" and the largest could be as big as 16", so it's a very large size gap. You also have a range of temperament from very docile to very aggressive species (of course individual personalities could prove this point inaccurate).

The synspilum will get very big and will probably be very aggressive, which would go against the general temperament theme you have with most of the rest of the stock. Personally, I would avoid it if you intend to keep many of the mild mannered cichlids like severums, chocolates, geophagus , EBJD and acaras.

The red ceibals need a 3-4 month cooling period that mimics their natural environment. Simply having an unheated tank in a section of your home that gets down into the 50s-60s would do well for them. However, this means you would need to catch them to place in a separate, unheated tank for several months if you intended to keep them with the other fish in your stock during the warmer months. It would be easier to either skip them or dedicate an entire tank to their temperature needs.

The Nic could be an aggression problem if it ends up being male, which can grow to 10" of attitude.

EBJD are super slow growers who generally are pretty mild mannered, so if the other cichlids start to outpace it in the growth department, you might need to grow it out in its own tank until it can handle itself. They are also prone to sudden death up until they are 4"+, which is why many people choose to raise them in their own tanks with extra filtration where there is less likelihood of aggression towards the EBJD and water parameters can be managed easily.

Geophagus are best kept in groups of four or more. Since altifrons reach 10-12" each, a group would take up a very large amount of stock room, so you might want to skip them and go with a smaller growing geo, like tapajos 'red heads' or pindare.

As for adults in a 125, you will want to keep the stock at or below five 10-12" cichlids, ten 6" cichlids or twenty 3-4" cichlids. These numbers obviously depend entire on species and individual aggression levels.

My 125 final stock is two Aequidens diadema (10" max), one Heros notatus (10-12" max) and four Guianacara stergiosi (4-5" max). It's a solid stock with room to add one more 6-8" cichlid if I find one I just absolutely have to have, but I intend to keep it the way it is.


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Thanks for the great advise. I will be trying to add a few more as right now I am siiting at 5. 3 of which will never hit 10" with 2 at about 10inches. I am pretty sure I will be adding a chocolate and perhaps another severum or EBJD. Nixing the Geos and Syn. Too big and wrong temperament for the syn and I wont be getting a group of geos so that wont be happening in all likeliness.

I am going to look more into the Nic before considering him further.

 

[Zathamos]

The light came with the tank, without legs, sorry for the wood. I am ordering a 72" LED light this weekend, so that ugliness will be gone. Also I should note. I couldn't readily find glass tops for a 125g long with 3 tops instead of the 2 (2 dividers, 3 22 inch tops), so I bought a sheet of acrylic and cut it to size. They bow a bit everyday, but I flip them everyday. Again, this will also be replaced with glass tops once our LFS gets some for us or we manage to find some online or on craigslist, but they have not been easy to find. So although this tank is set up how it will be for the fish, ignore the top of the tank, all that will be getting replaced with new and improved stuff. Also we had added the fourth HOB filter, it sits in the middle next to the center filter. We have 2 aqueon 75s which are rated for 90g moving 400GPH each, 1 tetra whisper ex rated for 70 gallons moving 340GPH, plus 1 penguin 150b rated for 50g moving 200GPH, giving us a total rating of 300gallons with a total GPH of 1,340. So we have great filtration For 125gallons, we are completely circulating the tank just under 11 times an hour!!!




































So here is the tank all set up. 125g long. No rock hiding spots or places to hide and claim. Just roots and some fake plants. You kind of see the bichir in the back left corner. he is about 4 1/2 - 5 inches right now. I am putting a backing sheet on to hide the back of the tank today. Black or blue? So at this size. I currently, right now, have 1 senegal bichir, 1 firemouth cichlid, 1 Green terror, 1 EBJD, 1 Electric blue acara, 1 Red spotted gold severum, 2 pictus catfish, and 6 rainbow fish. (1 boesmani, 1 goyder river, 1 yellow tail, 1 turquoise, 1 marci, and 1 red irian).

After these discussions I am now rethinking and would like to resubmit what im thinking of adding and hopefully have some final approvals saying it should work...

1 Chocolate cichlid, 1-2 more severums, 1 more EBJD, possibly 1 more senegal bichir, and a bristlenose pleco (to be added at a later time once the tank is established). New ideas, instead of a Geo Altirons, or any kind of real geo for that matter, what about a threadfin cichlid or Heckelli cichlid? Do raibowfish nip fins? Im still entertaining the possibility of adding a Nicaraguan. And what do you guys know about Geophagus Brasiliansis? I heard they are not a real geo, in fact they are really a cichlid, often called the pearl cichlid. How is the attitude of that fish? I dont know anything about them really other than size wise he is similar to what is in here and what i have just mentioned about them.

I have read both people saying it is full now, and people saying they had 18 cichlids in a 135. Im not aiming for 18, or even 12 for that matter. I am at 5 right now, which seems low. I know that 5 may be optimal for SA/CA cichlids with 6 feet of floor space. But we like to overstock our tanks a little. I just dont want to over-over stock this or cause problems because these are all really nice fish. Even the 96 cent firemouth's colors are really starting to pop. I was hoping to have something between 8-10 cichlids in here. Meaning I could possibly have up to 5 more. Realistically speaking I will probably only add 3 or 4 more. And although this is cichlid forum, for the sake of keeping the discussion in one place. What do you guys no of bichirs?

Do bichirs like being the lone bichir, or are they a fish that may be more social with 2 in the tank. Keep in mind he is surrounded by large SA/CA cichlids and rainbowfish.

Thanks for all the help and information ladies and gents, i will update with more photos soon.

 

[Mythic Figment]

The light came with the tank, without legs, sorry for the wood. I am ordering a 72" LED light this weekend, so that ugliness will be gone. Also I should note. I couldn't readily find glass tops for a 125g long with 3 tops instead of the 2 (2 dividers, 3 22 inch tops), so I bought a sheet of acrylic and cut it to size. They bow a bit everyday, but I flip them everyday. Again, this will also be replaced with glass tops once our LFS gets some for us or we manage to find some online or on craigslist, but they have not been easy to find. So although this tank is set up how it will be for the fish, ignore the top of the tank, all that will be getting replaced with new and improved stuff. Also we had added the fourth HOB filter, it sits in the middle next to the center filter. We have 2 aqueon 75s which are rated for 90g moving 400GPH each, 1 tetra whisper ex rated for 70 gallons moving 340GPH, plus 1 penguin 150b rated for 50g moving 200GPH, giving us a total rating of 300gallons with a total GPH of 1,340. So we have great filtration For 125gallons, we are completely circulating the tank just under 11 times an hour!!!
View attachment 1034428



































So here is the tank all set up. 125g long. No rock hiding spots or places to hide and claim. Just roots and some fake plants. You kind of see the bichir in the back left corner. he is about 4 1/2 - 5 inches right now. I am putting a backing sheet on to hide the back of the tank today. Black or blue? So at this size. I currently, right now, have 1 senegal bichir, 1 firemouth cichlid, 1 Green terror, 1 EBJD, 1 Electric blue acara, 1 Red spotted gold severum, 2 pictus catfish, and 6 rainbow fish. (1 boesmani, 1 goyder river, 1 yellow tail, 1 turquoise, 1 marci, and 1 red irian).

After these discussions I am now rethinking and would like to resubmit what im thinking of adding and hopefully have some final approvals saying it should work...

1 Chocolate cichlid, 1-2 more severums, 1 more EBJD, possibly 1 more senegal bichir, and a bristlenose pleco (to be added at a later time once the tank is established). New ideas, instead of a Geo Altirons, or any kind of real geo for that matter, what about a threadfin cichlid or Heckelli cichlid? Do raibowfish nip fins? Im still entertaining the possibility of adding a Nicaraguan. And what do you guys know about Geophagus Brasiliansis? I heard they are not a real geo, in fact they are really a cichlid, often called the pearl cichlid. How is the attitude of that fish? I dont know anything about them really other than size wise he is similar to what is in here and what i have just mentioned about them.

I have read both people saying it is full now, and people saying they had 18 cichlids in a 135. Im not aiming for 18, or even 12 for that matter. I am at 5 right now, which seems low. I know that 5 may be optimal for SA/CA cichlids with 6 feet of floor space. But we like to overstock our tanks a little. I just dont want to over-over stock this or cause problems because these are all really nice fish. Even the 96 cent firemouth's colors are really starting to pop. I was hoping to have something between 8-10 cichlids in here. Meaning I could possibly have up to 5 more. Realistically speaking I will probably only add 3 or 4 more. And although this is cichlid forum, for the sake of keeping the discussion in one place. What do you guys no of bichirs?

Do bichirs like being the lone bichir, or are they a fish that may be more social with 2 in the tank. Keep in mind he is surrounded by large SA/CA cichlids and rainbowfish.

Thanks for all the help and information ladies and gents, i will update with more photos soon.

The stock you have is pretty close to maxed. If you want to rehome some of them, then it give you some room to add some from your wish list. I can tell you that you will be horrendously overstocked if you add all that to the current stock.

Heckelii get to be 10-12", so are a big bioload increase. But temperament wide they should be fine.

'Geophagus' brasiliensis are not true geos. They tend to be very aggressive and that attitude would clash with the rest of your stock, which are almost entirely very peaceful for cichlids.

IME rainbow fish aren't very nippy. So long as you keep at least 6, they tend to be more entertained with their own kind to care about what goes on around them. Good dithers though.

IMO and IME, overstocking only works for the really peaceful American cichlids (mostly SAs). Most centrals and a decent number of southerns simply don't tolerate overstocking. If they lay claim to a territory, they can and will eliminate everything they can to secure that space. Of course species that are generally peaceful can still be aggressively territorial (especially if breeding). The safest way to over stock American cichlids is to get all females. However, most American females tend to be smaller and more drab than their male counterparts (unless breeding), which may (probably) won't interest you. Just be prepared with a body bag or two if you decide to over stock the tank. Even when stocking peaceful species, you are playing Russian roulette with the odds of obtaining an aggressive cichlid increasing with every fish you add to the tank.

A trick to help with potential aggression is to add the faster growing and/or more aggressive cichlids after the more peaceful ones are settled in.


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[neutrino]

I have read both people saying it is full now, and people saying they had 18 cichlids in a 135.

Generally speaking, I don't disagree with what Mythic posted above. But, like I said, it really depends on the mix and species of fish. So the 18 cichlids in my 135 were compatible fish that ranged from 5 or 6 inches (geo tapajos and angelfish) to 8 to 9 inches (rotkeil severums, which are generally a bit smaller than other severum types). The fish interacted and occupied the tank in such a way that it wasn't crowded, but a lot of that was because it was fish that worked in groups and not a conglomerate of individual fish of different species. (if you've never kept them that way, you can keep rotkiels in a group, and how they interact with each other isn't that differently from a group of geos, including that the group shouldn't be so few that you get aggression issues)

'Overstocked' is somewhat a relative term, varying by type and temperament of fish, maintenance and filtration, and personal taste. I had tanks years ago that by my standards now I'd say were way too crowded, but I was a nut for maintenance and listened to advice about what fish would be compatible with mine (local advice, this was before the internet) and my fish were healthy-- for example, I only knew of hole in the head from pictures, to this day I've never seen it in my tanks-- and I rarely had aggression issues. Those tanks worked, but now they would look overcrowded to me.

About bichirs, I don't know. Not a fish I've kept before.

 

[Cichlaholics Anonymous]

I kept Senegal and ornate bichirs in a 125 cichlid community very similar to the OP with no issues. ..only thing was that it was a PITA to get enough food down to the bichirs so they get enough to eat. In terms of aggression it was no problem though

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[fishblahblah]

I think it'd b ok. It's impossible to say for sure because each tank and fish community is different. If you want to be on the safer side I would suggest picking half. Just feel it out and make sure you have happy, healthy fish in a well filtered tank. Good luck on your tank.

 

[Zathamos]

Ok so I basically have an idea of what I want to do with this, first off, I have an ich outbreak going on right now. Looks like it originated on my yellow tail rainbow fish. Treating the tank right now using the heat method. Heat tank to 87 degrees and let it stay there for about a week. This is going to cause my fish to get a little crazy but everything I have read about what I have in here already and using the heat method says I should be fine, 87 wont kill any of these guys. Normally it sits right at 80, just so you all know.

I am going to restate what I currently have so nobody has to look back at the first page: 2 Pictus Catfish, 1 Senegal Bichir, 1 Red Spotted Severum, 1 electric blue acara, 1 electric blue jack dempsey (EBJD), 1 green terror, 1 firemouth, and 6 rainbow fish for dithers. (1 yellow tail, 1 turquoise, 1 goyder river, 1 marci, 1 red irian, and 1 boesmani)

Tank is 125 gallon, 72x18x24. Here is my list, if you guys see any stand-outs that may clash really badly with my current stock please say something. With the Ich outbreak it will be at least a week or two, if not more, before I actually add anyone else. 1 Chocolate cichlid, 1 Heckelli (threadfin) cichlid, 1 Nicaraguan cichlid. These are my main 3 that i will in all likeliness be adding unless I hear from someone that this is a terrible idea and they explain why. Also, I will be adding a bristlenose pleco in a few months. I want there to be some stuff for him to get busy on right away and not have to worry about getting him algae wafers.

Adding these three would bring my total cichlid count to 8, with nothing larger than 12" tops and most only getting to be 8". There are 3 I am still considering in some way. Im sorry to carry on this thread but you guys have been giving me great advise and this forum has been, by far, the best. What do you guys/gals think about festuviums? I am not really looking to add him, but they are really pretty with their white, im just curious about them. Also, I had asked a while ago about rainbow cichlids. I was told that with my current wish list, no way, he is far too peaceful. But if I am not doing the Syn or anything crazy aggressive, and my terror seems pretty ok with everything in the tank (its the acara and firemouth that get into it alot lately), what about adding a rainbow cichlid?
Again the most aggressive fish in the tank would be the terror or acara, with the feisty firemouth in close 3rd, but a chocolate is a big baby as I understand, and the severums are so peaceful and slow swimming, and my EBJD is just awesome (never has clashed with anything, other than backing down the firemouth once), would a rainbow cichlid possibly be a good candidate for this tank? Or would having the Nic in there bring too much aggression?

My girlfriend and I have discussed how many...and today we kind of came up with a number that we will not pass cichlid wise. We will not, NOT, have more than 12 cichlids in here, and that wouldnt leave much room for dithers or error, so we were really trying to set a goal of 8-10. Currently we have 5.

I also want to add 3 more rainbow fish. I currently have 6, should I be ok to add 3 more without overstocking? Again, Im sorry for carrying this on and on, I am very grateful for all of the information and knowledge you have all shared with me, I have learned a lot from these responses over the week. And I will continue to post pictures and updates with the tank regardless of what happens. I will be back on tomorrow night, thanks again guys/gals. Monsterfishkeepers is the best!


PS: If one of those main 3 are a no-go for whatever reason, I will probably get another severum.

 

[Mythic Figment]

Ok so I basically have an idea of what I want to do with this, first off, I have an ich outbreak going on right now. Looks like it originated on my yellow tail rainbow fish. Treating the tank right now using the heat method. Heat tank to 87 degrees and let it stay there for about a week. This is going to cause my fish to get a little crazy but everything I have read about what I have in here already and using the heat method says I should be fine, 87 wont kill any of these guys. Normally it sits right at 80, just so you all know.

I am going to restate what I currently have so nobody has to look back at the first page: 2 Pictus Catfish, 1 Senegal Bichir, 1 Red Spotted Severum, 1 electric blue acara, 1 electric blue jack dempsey (EBJD), 1 green terror, 1 firemouth, and 6 rainbow fish for dithers. (1 yellow tail, 1 turquoise, 1 goyder river, 1 marci, 1 red irian, and 1 boesmani)

Tank is 125 gallon, 72x18x24. Here is my list, if you guys see any stand-outs that may clash really badly with my current stock please say something. With the Ich outbreak it will be at least a week or two, if not more, before I actually add anyone else. 1 Chocolate cichlid, 1 Heckelli (threadfin) cichlid, 1 Nicaraguan cichlid. These are my main 3 that i will in all likeliness be adding unless I hear from someone that this is a terrible idea and they explain why. Also, I will be adding a bristlenose pleco in a few months. I want there to be some stuff for him to get busy on right away and not have to worry about getting him algae wafers.

Adding these three would bring my total cichlid count to 8, with nothing larger than 12" tops and most only getting to be 8". There are 3 I am still considering in some way. Im sorry to carry on this thread but you guys have been giving me great advise and this forum has been, by far, the best. What do you guys/gals think about festuviums? I am not really looking to add him, but they are really pretty with their white, im just curious about them. Also, I had asked a while ago about rainbow cichlids. I was told that with my current wish list, no way, he is far too peaceful. But if I am not doing the Syn or anything crazy aggressive, and my terror seems pretty ok with everything in the tank (its the acara and firemouth that get into it alot lately), what about adding a rainbow cichlid?
Again the most aggressive fish in the tank would be the terror or acara, with the feisty firemouth in close 3rd, but a chocolate is a big baby as I understand, and the severums are so peaceful and slow swimming, and my EBJD is just awesome (never has clashed with anything, other than backing down the firemouth once), would a rainbow cichlid possibly be a good candidate for this tank? Or would having the Nic in there bring too much aggression?

My girlfriend and I have discussed how many...and today we kind of came up with a number that we will not pass cichlid wise. We will not, NOT, have more than 12 cichlids in here, and that wouldnt leave much room for dithers or error, so we were really trying to set a goal of 8-10. Currently we have 5.

I also want to add 3 more rainbow fish. I currently have 6, should I be ok to add 3 more without overstocking? Again, Im sorry for carrying this on and on, I am very grateful for all of the information and knowledge you have all shared with me, I have learned a lot from these responses over the week. And I will continue to post pictures and updates with the tank regardless of what happens. I will be back on tomorrow night, thanks again guys/gals. Monsterfishkeepers is the best!


PS: If one of those main 3 are a no-go for whatever reason, I will probably get another severum.

The green terror, a Nic and the firemouth will be the three you want to keep an eye on for heightened aggression. A male Nic can be very aggressive territorially speaking, so I recommend a female to alleviate both a bio-load increase and aggression issues. The terror could end up being a vicious brute or a calm peace keeper. It will all depend on personality. Make sure your tank has plenty of hiding spots for the other inhabitants in case things get rough with any of the three potential aggressors. The firemouth is the least likely of the three to cause any issues, but on very rare occasions people have reported psycho firemouths.

Your bio load is super heavy for all the adult sizes of the fish listed. You will need to make sure you have fantastic filtration (minimum 10 times turnover per hour) and I would recommend at least two weekly 50% water changes. Eight 8"+ cichlids is REALLY pushing it. Any more than that is out of the question IMO.

Whether everyone gets along or not will depend a lot on the individual personalities of the cichlids you're keeping. American cichlids are more territorial than Africans, which is why overstocking is more challenging for American tanks. It will be very important for you to keep a watchful eye on the fish and remove any aggressors to their own tank or rehome them. Not doing so will likely cost you a few fish.

Festivum do best in a species only tanks in groups of 5+. Solitary festivum are calm and can be kept with other peaceful cichlids, but aren't very active. Grouped festivum are very rough on tankmates that cruise into the middle and don't stay on the bottom. They dive bomb them and peck at their heads, so it's best to keep them in a species only tank or with fish that stay on the bottom all the time.

Rainbow cichlids are pretty peaceful and tend to be very shy, especially if kept with larger cichlids. Much like keyholes, they thrive best in a tank where they are the biggest fish in the tank. A community of top dwelling dithers are necessary to help them feel at ease and a few smaller cichlids can be added (apistos, rams, etc) if the tank is big enough.


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[neutrino]

Whether everyone gets along or not will depend a lot on the individual personalities of the cichlids you're keeping.

That's it, that's the deal right there ime.

But that's true of most cichlids in whatever combination you keep them. You can plan based on the tendencies of a particular species, but in reality someone can't 100% predict the results for any particular tank and sometimes it means making adjustments for the personalities of the individual fish.

Regarding filtration, there are different approaches to it, but my philosophy is not to focus on turnover alone. Total filtration is largely a product of turnover and media volume, while other variables-- type of media, filter design, filter maintenance, substrate (type, depth, etc.), redox, water changes, plants-- can all make a difference. Too many intricacies to go in depth, but just one example is I've found tanks running UV tend to filter more efficiently (in other words equal or better water quality with less filtration)... the reasons for this have to do with effect of redox on water quality and fish health and the effect of UV on redox.

Just a thought on adding a second severum, two severums may or may not get along ime. Will depend on the individual severums.