Intentional Overfeeding?

[kkirkt]

Hello, I'm new to the group, but I have a theoretical question for you.

If your stocking is low, would it ever be good to intentionally overfeed?

Example: You started a tank and did a fishless cycle using ammonia. You would dose up to 4 ppm and the next day NH3 and NO2 would be zero. Then you start stocking the tank, but lightly (initially).
Hypothetically, (and I'm just making up numbers for discussion purposes), say your fish would raise NH3 to 1 ppm with no filtration. Your intentional overfeeding would raise NH3 by 2 ppm (with no filtration). So each day you are "dosing" your tank to 3 ppm NH3; however, since it is a steady, gradual dosing, the filtration keeps NH3 & NO2 zero and it feeds a thriving biological filter. Of course, water changes (or heavy planting, deep sand bed, live rock, etc) are needed to keep the NO3 in check.

Theoretical positives (that I see)-
keeping a larger colony of BB for bio filtration
Makes it easier to add more fish later ("larger" filter in place)
Shy fish (slow eaters) more likely to get food
If/when a fish dies, the ammonia spike will be more easily handled by the "larger" BB filter.

Definite negatives (some that I see)-
if you loose power, water chemistry will likely go crazy (NH3 and NO2 will go high),
encourages algae & snails (& other critters)
Poor fish health (fat fish)
Probably need to clean the filters more (mulm buildup)
I'm sure there are more negatives I'm not thinking of . . .

But from a pure water chemistry standpoint, does this sound logical (overfeeding)? Other thoughts?

[Full disclosure: this is not entirely a theoretical discussion. I'm getting back into the hobby after a while away. My empty DT (125 gallons) is cycled and I have 2 fish (hog chokers) in a QT (10 gallons). After I move them to the DT I will get a few more fish, quarantine, and then move them to the DT (but that will take a while). Two 1 inch hog chokers are tiny for a 125 gallon tank. They will be the only initial inhabitants for a while (plus a few ghost shrimp) Also, given that I don't always get to see them eat (ambush, opportunistic predators), it would be easier to overfeed to ensure they get a chance to eat. I'm tentatively planning on adding California blackworms just so there is a continuous, living food supply in the tank for the hog chokers. Again, your thoughts are welcome.]

Thanks,
kevin

 

[skjl47]

Hello; Not sure why at first thought but this plane seems wrong somehow. I get that some use decay of food/ shrimp in the fishless cycle process. This is to get the beneficial bacteria colonies started. I have never tried this method so do not know what other effects the excess fish food may have during such cycling.

I do however have some experience with regular overfeeding. When first keeping tanks I overfed for over ten years I guess. It was not uncommon for me to have to break down a tank for a good cleaning in a year or two. The tanks would be nasty. Bear in mind this was before decent HOB's were available and I had not fully understood the overall benefits of regular Water changes at around a week or so. This was in the late 1950' thru the 60's.

I also think there is more to the decay byproducts than just the ammonia.

Another result of excess feeding can be a large population of snails.

To my initial thinking some other way to maintain extra bb might be sought.

 

[Grinch]

Overfeeding an empty tank as a way to boost your cycle might work, but there are easier ways to do this. The easiest way to do this is via direct application of ammonia. This is also managing decomposition rates, but the difference in this method as opposed to "over feeding" is that you can directly measure all components of decomposition by measuring ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels.

You should ask yourself if you really want all of these decomposers in the tank anyway. Who wants loads of fungal spores and bugs running around in their tank?

If it were me, I'd just dropped the hog chokers in the tank along with the black worms, keep on eye on things for a couple weeks, and do water changes/vacuuming as needed to keep the nitrogen cycling under control.

 

[jaws7777]

Hello, I'm new to the group, but I have a theoretical question for you.

If your stocking is low, would it ever be good to intentionally overfeed?

I wouldnt considering the negative impact over feeding can have on the health of the fish

 

[Drstrangelove]

If your stocking is low, would it ever be good to intentionally overfeed?

No.

Fish food does not lead to only ammonia.

Ammonia comes from nitrogen which comes from the protein in fish food. Let's say that you have dry food which is 10% moisture. Let's say that protein is 40% of the dry content. Only 18% of protein (on average) is nitrogen. Only 82% of the nitrogen becomes ammonia. From that it's apparent that only a small portion of the fish food becomes ammonia.

The rest becomes debris and garbage in the tank, some of which feeds the heterotrophic bacteria that generates a bacteria bloom. Heterotrophic bacteria consume large amounts of oxygen that negatively affect the BB and the fish. Debris and garbage clog the filters and collect as waste within the system.

So excess food is not a good thing to intentionally provide.

One might than ask: well then how about just cutting out the food and instead just add excess ammonia to the tank while the fish are in it?

The answer is that the ammonia levels would skyrocket whenever it was added (unless it was added in very tiny amounts all day long) and on each occasion this would damage the fish to some lesser or greater extent.

Once fish are in a tank that is cycled, the better plan is to not rapidly increase the bio load all at once.

 

[duanes]

I agree with Drstrangelove, detritus provide substrate for pathogenic bacteria to proliferate, nasty disease carrying species like Flexibactor columnaris and fungal pathogens such as saprolegnia can become epidemic in tanks with even moderate amounts of debris.
These same phages can also buildup in filters if detritus is not regularly cleaned out.
Since beneficial bacteria are aerobes and live as sessile biofilm on surfaces, detritus can become a problem for them, smothering out and allowing the anaerobic pathogens to outcompete.
When I worked as a microbiologist, it was often difficult to grow certain species because if only 1 fungal spore settled on a petrie dish, the culture could not compete with the unintended invader.

 

[skjl47]

Once fish are in a tank that is cycled, the better plan is to not rapidly increase the bio load all at once.

detritus provide substrate for pathogenic bacteria to proliferate, nasty disease carrying species like Flexibactor columnaris and fungal pathogens such as saprolegnia can become epidemic in tanks with even moderate amounts of debris.

Hello; These would have ben my answers if I had thought of them.

 

[RD.]

One might than ask: well then how about just cutting out the food and instead just add excess ammonia to the tank while the fish are in it?

There's a way to do this safely - but only if your local water supply is chloramine based. Water changes - large ones, and often, 4-5 times a week.
The bacteria multiply to keep up to the total ammonia levels, while ones water conditioner keeps it safe for fish. (Seachem Prime, or Safe)

Works like a charm.