Is Heros Rotkeil hybrid?

[Theos.dad]

No change, not yet scientifically described and some debate what they are. They're reported to be from Rio Nanay. When I look it up that's nearly 200 miles of river, with no specific spot given. It could also mean a smaller, nearby stream somewhere, and not the main river, as is the case with some other species.

Personally, while I understand the reasoning for the hybrid theory and I've remained open-minded, I consider it speculative and unproven up to now. One of the arguments is no one has seen or filmed rotkeil in the wild and some hobbyists have gone to search and not found them. This may not be entirely true, for example a friend of Jim Cummings may have collected them.

For as many who say they're a hybrid, etc. there are respected sources who so they are not. I specifically asked Jeff Rapps about this some years ago, he essentially said those who say hybrid don't know what they're talking about, don't have the connections and sources he does, and you should understand that collectors sometimes keep locations for certain fish to themselves, something I know has been true with some other fish. Oliver Lucanus recognizes rotkeil in his Heros video (link below), but doesn't actually show them in the wild-- more fodder for the hybrid theorists.

Some have said show us the fish in the wild. To this I've said show me your speculative breeding ponds. Then someone will say it's a huge area, they could be well hidden. To which I say right back at you, the same argument can be made for their wild location. And so it goes. I've kept an open mind, but it's a little like string theory in physics, a popular but speculative theory, still unproven after decades of trying, while it's been criticized by some physicists. As long as there's doubt people will fall on both sides of the question.

Awesome answer that has brought even more interest for me! Ive definitely got some research to do as now I'm not sure where I stand. I could see ppl keeping catching locations secret since it makes great sense financially. Thanks for information my friend

 

[Theos.dad]

Looks like the wetspot has "wild caught" Rotkeils available right now. So there's that ?‍

I'm thinking about messaging them and asking the catch location if they are supposedly to be wild caught. Guessing they'll say rio nanay

 

[Kevin@TUIC]

Always a conspiracy theory with this species lol

Heros cf. efasciatus 'Rotkeil' is a naturally occurring species that can and has been wild collected for a nearly 2 decades from a section along the Rio Nanay in Peru. Multiple exporters out of Peru offer this species regularly. They are not a secret species but the issue is that the local fisherman and the exporters do not know them by 'rotkeil' they go by another local name. Sounds weird right? Nope, it is super common in the industry. Remember, these are not scientists or even hobbyists collecting or exporting. It is local village fisherman looking to make a living. MANY exporters refer to different species simply as cichlasoma purple, cichlasoma silver, or red, etc. It is up to the importer to either A: risk it and order whatever it is and

for something cool or B: do the most possible (current)research to know the watersheds and what is or may be in them. Cichlasoma silver for example can be any Aequidens, Andinoacara, or Burjurquina species. You just won't know until it arrives and you have to ID it. Most exporter lists are vague and list the most popular species of a complex. Geophagus surinamensis is one off the top of my head. No one is collecting or exporting that species. They are 99% going to be either abalios or altifrons. Some retailers still sell as surinamensis because either they do not know that or do not care and list as the exporter sells them as. One retialer is consistently selling Geo abalios as winemilleri so...

TUIC has a 30 year relationship with many of the exporters in SA so I am able to receive very detailed information that the collectors or exporters may not always give up to someone new or even very established but does not import as much. Most of them know I will not import them if I do not have the information I need to be able to market them as correct as possible. In a recent Colombia collection TUIC had boots on the ground. So I know exactly where some new fish were caught with precise gps coordinates and names of the local fisherman. The locations I have listed are accurate but slightly vague. At the request of the exporter some of the super precise location information was asked to to not be used. The reason for his request? It is his business and exclusivity is important to him and his company(and me). Blurting out the exact specific bank of the river or small tributary of, in the exact village along the waterway will just invite other collectors working for other exporters to start collecting the area. Often in mass quantities. Which of course is detrimental to the exporters business and the actual fisherman/collector.
As far as the severum, there are only a small handful of people/companies in the WORLD that even import them from wild source. So it's not like the fisherman or the exporter they sell the fish to are living like 1980s Escobar off of 1 species that a handful are even importing. It's as simple as knowing what season they can be caught and what to exactly request.
As to comparing many of the photos posted online and in this very topic.. you might be comparing captive long time farm bred stock to wild stock. Big no no. The likelihood of the species hybridizing or being labeled wrong is incredibly high. Or, if someone imported them how do they know they received the right species unless they have all of the exact details from the source. You need only to compare wild stock to wild stock. Or F1 - F3 generations from proven known wild stock. They should all be extremely similar. Of course some variation will happen. Just like people, some fish look better than their siblings. Some fish are just cared for better by somebody either knowingly or unknowingly. And of course no one ever shares photos or videos of the ugly fish only the stand out fish.

So what are my thoughts on this undescribed species?
I list them specifically as Heros cf. efasciatus 'Rotkeil' - Rio Nanay. Why the cf.? I think they are likely an efasciatus variant. Why rotkeil? So you guys know what efasciatus I'm listing. Why rio Nanay? Because that is where the fish were collected from, or at least a small unnamed tributary of it. "Yeah but my friends friend collected in rio Nanay and they didn't see any" okay... the river is roughly 200 miles long with many small unnamed tributaries. Unnamed tributaries are more common than not in central and south America. plus, most of us have gone fishign in our lifetime. have you never gotten 'skunked' ? If specific populations within populations couldn't be different from others within the same watershed then I suppose I can stop listing collection locations on all species because then it doesn't matter right? Just the greater watershed then would matter and a severum is a severum

Some species like M. ramirezi often aren't even collected in a named body of water. They are often collected from drying up flood plain puddles a few feet wide and deep that are no longer connected to a continuous body of water possibly, even for miles. In that case I would need to use the nearest body of water which is likely the origin of the pool or the nearest village name.

But the fact is that some species have populations that are ugly and some that are nicer depending on the exact specific spot they inhabit.
Think about your local native fish populations. Why is a largemouth bass from a brook/stream up the street nicer than the ones in the pond that feeds said brook but is 50 miles away? Even though they are connected does not mean the water and environment is the same. If you haven't yet, check out our friend Oliver Lucanus youtube video on Heros sp.. it has some great information on the Heros complex.

 

[neutrino]

How do you nominate a thread as a sticky?

This is the same thing Jeff told me years ago, but with a little more detail. As I said above I considered the hybrid theory speculative and unproven, but for the sake of discussion I would keep the door to the question ajar when it came up-- but this is now Jeff, Oliver, and Kevin, all with great credentials and all in agreement. On the other side is speculation started by hobbyists and picked up by other hobbyists. For me that's a wrap.

 

[RD.]

How do you nominate a thread as a sticky?

This is the same thing Jeff told me years ago, but with a little more detail. As I said above I considered the hybrid theory speculative and unproven, but for the sake of discussion I would keep the door to the question ajar when it came up-- but this is now Jeff, Oliver, and Kevin, all with great credentials and all in agreement. On the other side is speculation started by hobbyists and picked up by other hobbyists. For me that's a wrap.

I concur.

Gourami Swami duanes james99

 

[Theos.dad]

Always a conspiracy theory with this species lol

Heros cf. efasciatus 'Rotkeil' is a naturally occurring species that can and has been wild collected for a nearly 2 decades from a section along the Rio Nanay in Peru. Multiple exporters out of Peru offer this species regularly. They are not a secret species but the issue is that the local fisherman and the exporters do not know them by 'rotkeil' they go by another local name. Sounds weird right? Nope, it is super common in the industry. Remember, these are not scientists or even hobbyists collecting or exporting. It is local village fisherman looking to make a living. MANY exporters refer to different species simply as cichlasoma purple, cichlasoma silver, or red, etc. It is up to the importer to either A: risk it and order whatever it is and

for something cool or B: do the most possible (current)research to know the watersheds and what is or may be in them. Cichlasoma silver for example can be any Aequidens, Andinoacara, or Burjurquina species. You just won't know until it arrives and you have to ID it. Most exporter lists are vague and list the most popular species of a complex. Geophagus surinamensis is one off the top of my head. No one is collecting or exporting that species. They are 99% going to be either abalios or altifrons. Some retailers still sell as surinamensis because either they do not know that or do not care and list as the exporter sells them as. One retialer is consistently selling Geo abalios as winemilleri so...

TUIC has a 30 year relationship with many of the exporters in SA so I am able to receive very detailed information that the collectors or exporters may not always give up to someone new or even very established but does not import as much. Most of them know I will not import them if I do not have the information I need to be able to market them as correct as possible. In a recent Colombia collection TUIC had boots on the ground. So I know exactly where some new fish were caught with precise gps coordinates and names of the local fisherman. The locations I have listed are accurate but slightly vague. At the request of the exporter some of the super precise location information was asked to to not be used. The reason for his request? It is his business and exclusivity is important to him and his company(and me). Blurting out the exact specific bank of the river or small tributary of, in the exact village along the waterway will just invite other collectors working for other exporters to start collecting the area. Often in mass quantities. Which of course is detrimental to the exporters business and the actual fisherman/collector.
As far as the severum, there are only a small handful of people/companies in the WORLD that even import them from wild source. So it's not like the fisherman or the exporter they sell the fish to are living like 1980s Escobar off of 1 species that a handful are even importing. It's as simple as knowing what season they can be caught and what to exactly request.
As to comparing many of the photos posted online and in this very topic.. you might be comparing captive long time farm bred stock to wild stock. Big no no. The likelihood of the species hybridizing or being labeled wrong is incredibly high. Or, if someone imported them how do they know they received the right species unless they have all of the exact details from the source. You need only to compare wild stock to wild stock. Or F1 - F3 generations from proven known wild stock. They should all be extremely similar. Of course some variation will happen. Just like people, some fish look better than their siblings. Some fish are just cared for better by somebody either knowingly or unknowingly. And of course no one ever shares photos or videos of the ugly fish only the stand out fish.

So what are my thoughts on this undescribed species?
I list them specifically as Heros cf. efasciatus 'Rotkeil' - Rio Nanay. Why the cf.? I think they are likely an efasciatus variant. Why rotkeil? So you guys know what efasciatus I'm listing. Why rio Nanay? Because that is where the fish were collected from, or at least a small unnamed tributary of it. "Yeah but my friends friend collected in rio Nanay and they didn't see any" okay... the river is roughly 200 miles long with many small unnamed tributaries. Unnamed tributaries are more common than not in central and south America. plus, most of us have gone fishign in our lifetime. have you never gotten 'skunked' ? If specific populations within populations couldn't be different from others within the same watershed then I suppose I can stop listing collection locations on all species because then it doesn't matter right? Just the greater watershed then would matter and a severum is a severum

Some species like M. ramirezi often aren't even collected in a named body of water. They are often collected from drying up flood plain puddles a few feet wide and deep that are no longer connected to a continuous body of water possibly, even for miles. In that case I would need to use the nearest body of water which is likely the origin of the pool or the nearest village name.

But the fact is that some species have populations that are ugly and some that are nicer depending on the exact specific spot they inhabit.
Think about your local native fish populations. Why is a largemouth bass from a brook/stream up the street nicer than the ones in the pond that feeds said brook but is 50 miles away? Even though they are connected does not mean the water and environment is the same. If you haven't yet, check out our friend Oliver Lucanus youtube video on Heros sp.. it has some great information on the Heros complex.

That was so much more of an explanation than I thought I'd ever get. Thank you for taking the time to educate. I have this bookmarked for future conversations.

 

[RD.]

So any chance of a sticky? lol


I mean, if room at the top of the page is the issue, I think that the topic below could be removed to make room for something as educational & noteworthy as this one? Yes? No?

Which is the most aggressive SA/CA cichlid in your experience/opinion?

Lupin's forum etiquette topic could also be long gone at this point. That topic was posted several years back when this folder was active with some overly passionate individuals. lol Forum Etiquette Reminder


Let me try this again. duanes Gourami Swami - what say you guys, does this not make sense?

 

[Gourami Swami]

So any chance of a sticky? lol


I mean, if room at the top of the page is the issue, I think that the topic below could be removed to make room for something as educational & noteworthy as this one? Yes? No?

Which is the most aggressive SA/CA cichlid in your experience/opinion?

Lupin's forum etiquette topic could also be long gone at this point. That topic was posted several years back when this folder was active with some overly passionate individuals. lol Forum Etiquette Reminder


Let me try this again. duanes Gourami Swami - what say you guys, does this not make sense?

Solid educational thread, just saw your tag. Certainly OK with stickying this one. Cheers

 

[RD.]

Thank you, I'm certain that many hobbyists present & future will benefit from the info supplied by Kevin at TUIC.

Thanks to neutrino for getting this ball rolling.

 

[james99]

For some reason I didn't get a notification that I was tagged in this one. I agree, very informative and deserves to be stickied.