Is Hybridization A Problem?

[Malawinut]

sorry why isnt the albino thing natural? or are you talking about "selective breeding" of albinos, in which case thats fair enough

Just like many other creatures albinos DO occur in the lake with very short lifespans since they stick out like a sore thumb. A few years ago I talked with both Ad Konings and Stuart Grant and mentioned albinos in the lake. Both stated that this was very rare in the lake due to predatation. A specimen making it to reproductive age in the lake would be pretty much impossible. Now in the "unnatural" aquarium setting, man has selectively bred albinos. The last decade has seen this fad grow huge. I really think that many buyers on places like AquaBid think that there are these albino Taiwan Reefs swimming around in the lake . They have no clue about anything about the fish other than "Dude, that fish is sooooooo cool." If you can ever find some old copies (not condoning piracy ) of the Cichlid Press series or National Geographics Jewels of the Rift one would see that it is the unique behaviors and natural colorations that make these awesome fish. Something funny though is that albinos are easily picked off in the wild, but there are species of Pseudotropheus and Labidochromis that are naturally white that do survive. I've forgotten most of my one course in genetics, but aren't albinos not as hardy?

 

[Scotty]

White lions do not survive in the wild. They do not have the natural camoflage needed for hunting. Man has taken them and kept them alive. The same applies with the fish.
I personally am not interested in buying albino's. I like the colours. Had my Placidochromis Johnstoni solo go almost completely yellow the other day when I introduced some new fish to the tank. Watched as he showed his dark stripes then made the disappear and then re-appear. How would this happen if he was Albino?

 

[M|L]

actually.

there are naturally occurring colonies of "pearl" colored malawi zebras that I know of which resembles very much to the albino in terms of color.

again, how you view "hybrids" is your very own opinion, no need to oppose it on other people.

 

[Malawinut]

actually.
there are naturally occurring colonies of "pearl" colored malawi zebras that I know of which resembles very much to the albino in terms of color.
again, how you view "hybrids" is your very own opinion, no need to oppose it on other people.

Maybe that is why I already wrote

there are species of Pseudotropheus and Labidochromis that are naturally white that do survive.

M/L you also wrote :

Nothing wrong with hybrids. Most of commonly available african cichlids are hybrids anyway, so chances are your fish are mixed regardless.

That is you yourself giving your opinion in what many of us regard as reckless and unprofessional. I agree there are many commonly accepted species all through the hobby. However, most organized groups from local fish clubs up to the ACA do not condone hybrids and especially africans. A newbie to the hobby comes here and sees your statement and thinks because you are a moderator and have sooo many posts that what you say is factual. I like to base what I say on FACTS and have given many. I honestly try to present those facts to newer/less advanced members so they don't make some of the common mistakes of hybridization. Sometimes the truth is taken offensively by them. Since you've put some of your opinions up how about you join and share factual data. What is your opinion (I will respect it) on the status of Lake Victoria and how the hobby has been affected by it? What is your background with Africans.? Now I have been civil so please have some dignity and don't just LOCK IT because you have the little button. Maybe you can learn some facts to add substance to all those posts under your name. Heck, maybe I can learn some things from you. I've seen some signs of intelligent life here (Scotty ) and would love to exchange some data/experiences. Let's keep it specifically to africans and leave out the albinos and line-breds.
BTW, the main reason I keep coming back here is that this is one of the few forums that has the potential for current/future large rift lake species...aka Monsters.

 

[Jason_S]

That is you yourself giving your opinion in what many of us regard as reckless and unprofessional. I agree there are many commonly accepted species all through the hobby. However, most organized groups from local fish clubs up to the ACA do not condone hybrids and especially africans

yes, that is his opinion just as you regarding hybrids as reckless and unprofessional is your opinion. my opinion is that what people do in their tank is their business. not everyone is as die hard about species preservation as those in organized clubs. for that matter, not everyone loves fish with the same passion as those in the fish clubs. so if there are people out there who like their fish because they look good and want to keep something that is hybrid or let hybrids breed in their tank then so be it. however, what I agree is reckless and unprofessional is taking those hybrid fry and selling them off as something other than what they are. that is what is damaging the hobby, not John P. Fishkeeper breeding Zebra mutts in his tank. not everyone is in the hobby for the same reason. that is why it's important for those of us who do love the fish that much to do what we can in our tanks to help preserve the pureness of the species and it's our responsibility to make sure we're getting quality stock for breeding purposes. any member of an organized club wouldn't go to a Petsmart or Petco to find breeding stock. those places are there for the casual aquarist.

yes, I agree it is very important for us (the die hard cichlid lovers) to educate even those casual aquarists. however, I disagree with taking the route of chastising them for allowing a hybrid spawn in one of their tanks. instead, I think the proper approach there is to congratulate the person on taking such good care of his fish that they are spawning, but also to educate them on the dangers of passing those fish along. perhaps recommending some type of nocturnal catfish that could help pick off the fry at night and keep the numbers under control so that person's tank doesn't get too overstocked would be a better way of trying to help the situation than telling them to flush the offspring of his prized fish.

the bottom line is that it is not hybridization that is damaging the pureness of the species available. it is the uneducated and unscrupulous people who spread those hybrids around passing them off as pure species that is causing the problem. we need to address that issue instead of simply saying that "hybrids are evil".

 

[Malawinut]

Jason_S wrote:

what I agree is reckless and unprofessional is taking those hybrid fry and selling them off as something other than what they are. that is what is damaging the hobby, not John P. Fishkeeper breeding Zebra mutts in his tank.

Well, that, and the rest of your post, is what I thought I've been saying, but maybe somewhere it was taken out of context. I've had hybrids happen in my tanks when I was newer in the hobby myself. I never said that anyone should be "put up against the wall and shot" for having hybrids. From your post it does not look like you agree with the "Nothing wrong with hybrids" comment though. It was that person's comment that I found to be reckless and unprofessional due to that person's status. I have never said that people who keep nor those who happen to have hybrids are reckless and unprofessional. If I did belittle someone for an honest hybridization in their tank then I would apologize. For someone to come and ask for advice, be given it, and then flare up I think would make them the problem and not someone like myself, not being all pc. I think we are in agreement that it's not a problem until they spread them in the hobby, which has been happening at increasing rates. The old saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is my philosophy, and I think that when most "casual" members of the hobby read threads like this they will do the right thing. That was a good post and most of it was "hitting the nail on the head".

 

[fish head )'>]

:

 

[Ash]

Firs I really appreciate the way you guys are talking about this becuase alot of times these kind of discussions get out of controll fast =) But you all are very civil which is nice to see. Anyways I do agree that hybirds can sometimes be a cool thing to own and if you happen to have it breed in your tank then maybe keep one or two see what they look like and let the rest be taken care (maybe as feeders maybe or something) I would personally never sell a hybrid off to a store, which is def. a big problem. I see alot of hybrid Africans around at my lfs so I tend to buy from a few few select ones who are also hobbyist and who I know have pure fish. =) It is good advice to tell someone who is newwer that there hybrid is nice and if they say its spawns what do I do, then just make sure they know not to ciruclate them in the lfs and like Jason said prob. have something eat them off. I do think that the biggest problem is the ones breeding hybrids then sellling them as the "next cool *pure* fish" that is is not.

 

[recycling goddess]

and of course, there are some fish - like OB Peacocks that some say are true and others say are hybrids. my OB male is the most beautiful fish... but i wouldn't sell any of the fry, as a matter of fact, now i keep the female in my 135g frontosa tank and the male in another tank so there is no breeding happening. (and the fact she's my only female and he pesters her like crazzzzzzy when they are together... poor thing was always holding) so also, for her health, i keep them in sep tanks.

personally, over the last couple of years, i've only bought my cichlid from this guy:

http://www.riftzoneaquatics.com/

cause i trust his stock to be pure. never ever gotten a sick fish, from him and his guarantee is amazing!

 

[recycling goddess]

can't see an option to edit my post... so i'll just add my comments here:

i forgot to mention... i get upset when i buy a young cichlid, take it home and watch for it's colour to appear as it gets older... and there is none. nothing cool about a muddy fish who you can't identify. in my experience, that's what i get when i buy at a lfs - inbreeds and crosses.

which totally sucks... cause the average person who decides they want to keep cichlids doesn't realize that is what they may be getting when they go to their lfs for them... and often they don't realize there's someone in their community is totally into cichlids and can hook them up with some niiiiiiiiiiiice fish.

*rant over*