Naso Tang VS Alge

[thisissimple]

wow. We agree on almost everything but philosophy and even some of that.

I feed all my fish NLS and saw Pablo's Idols. (Its actually how I got started feeding it, and why I showed it to my bro (FLESHY)

90+ percent of my fishes diets are NLS with Thera. I don't care that garlic doesn't grow in the ocean, the food works. I feed Nori not for nutritional reasons, but because I think the ruff-age is important digestively, and because my tangs get bored with nothing to pick at. Is it a "wild condition"? F$%K no. But just because I can't give them an ocean doesn't mean I shouldn't give them something to do... where's the harm in that?

On another note, I've never seen 3 people bascially agree so vehemently.

 

[RD.]

But just because I can't give them an ocean doesn't mean I shouldn't give them something to do... where's the harm in that?

There is no harm at all.

My only concern is that hobbyists understand that these fish require much more than just the nutrients found in seaweed in order to be kept successfully long term in captivity.

Sounds to me like you gents have it figured out, but others might not.

And yes, I think that it's fair to say that we are all saying the same thing, just with slightly different twists.

 

[nonstophoops]

The same thing that I have attempted to get across all along.

That you can't expect to recreate any of these fishes natural environment, in a 4-6ft closed system, such as a glass box. Nothing about that is going to be natural, including how the fish feeds, or what it eats. When one asks about the proper dietary care of a Naso Tang most so called experts will suggest something along the lines of the following.

Feed a diet rich in vegetable matter including frozen herbivore foods, dried seaweed, or live macro algae. Frequent feedings are necessary, as this fish grazes constantly. Dried seaweed or algae sheets should be provided daily.

Yet IMO that type of advice is a nothing more than a sure fire guarantee to a malnourished & unhealthy fish. While both freshwater & marine fish that have been classified as herbivorous grazers do in fact constantly graze on aquatic plant matter in the wild, it's the micro nutrients gleaned from animal origin that supply these fish with the essential nutrients for growth, repair, disease resistance, and to perform normal daily metabolic functions. Post #11 in this discussion shows very clearly how nutrient deficient washed seaweed alone can be.

The exact same thing applies to freshwater fish that have been classified as herbivores. Using Tropheus sp. one of the most herbivorous species found in the Rift Lakes, we now know that while algae may dominate the stomach contents of the majority of Tropheus, the actual foods that make them grow and thrive are insect nymphs and larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, micro-organisms, and zoo plankton, not vegetable matter.

These types of specialized feeding methods work in the wild due to the various micro-organisms of animal origin found within the aquatic plant matter, without those amino acids (protein), and fatty acids (lipids) these fish would not be able to survive, let alone grow, breed, and fend off disease.

Bob Fenner touches upon this in the following link. (where he also plugs NLS)

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/naso_lituratus.htm






So while these essential nutrients are available to fish in the wild, feeding foods such as washed seaweed and/or nori in the aquarium does not mirror the nutrient levels found in these fishes natural diet in the wild, at all. Naso Tangs & Tropheus are similar in many ways, both species are from waters with high 02 levels, both are high energy active species, and due to their feeding techniques in the wild, both eat from sun up to sun down in order to glean enough nutrients to survive to the next day. In captivity we cannot feed on a constant basis for 12 hrs a day, nor do we have to, but what we can do in order to meet these high energy demands is feed a highly nutrient dense food, a few times a day. IMO the books & so called experts have it all backazzwwards.

If you want to feed nori, seaweed etc, that's fine, but those foods should make up but a small portion of the diet, while the nutrient dense foods should make up the bulk of the diet, as in captivity these fish are NOT eating from sun up to sun down, and in captivity the seaweed/nori that is being fed is completely lacking in the various micro-organisms of animal origin which as previously explained is actually more important to the health of these fish than plant matter.

Just because we can't fully duplicate the ocean/natural environment doesn't mean we should just fully scrap it and not give them anything even when we can. It isn't an all or nothing proposition.

Your quote of Fenner here is really interesting. I find it intriguing because his opinion seems to differ from what he said that we were talking about earlier.

In this case Fenner stills believes that feeding NLS is the way to go. He is telling us to what the fish eat in the wild and what we should feed in the captive setting. This includes vitamin soaks, algae, mysis, and NLS(all things we recommend). He then goes on to state in the next paragraph.

For such high-metabolism/movement animals, more frequent feedings are desirable... a few times daily is easily achieved with an automatic feeder. An ideal situation would be to have a VERY large lighted refugium associated with your main/display tank... where you could grow a bunch of live macroalgae and make parts of these colonies available for foraging every few days./QUOTE]

He says right there when plugging NLS that live macroalgae is the ideal.

 

[RD.]

He says right there when plugging NLS that live macroalgae is the ideal.

Ask Bob how many Naso Tangs he has raised in captivity feeding live macroalgae, and if he indeed has, how long they have lived.

Then get back to me .......

No one has said that this is an all or nothing proposition, if you still don't get what I'm attempting to say than I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it?

To the OP ....

I have try othe foods flaks pellets and it will maby take one or two pellets , If I do not give it alge for one whole day the next day it will except the pellets a little more like 10 or better . SO what do you suggest , Do I skip out on the alge till its eating the pellets better and then introduce the alge back or do I stff it fulll of the alge daily if that is what it realy wants just give it ?

I suggest that you stop feeding algae, get it on to a high quality pellet such as NLS, and only add fresh algae back to its diet once your fish is taking the pellets readily. You have a large fish, with large nutrient requirments that algae is not going to supply. That is the short & sweet of it all.

HTH

 

[nonstophoops]

Ask Bob how many Naso Tangs he has raised in captivity feeding live macroalgae, and if he indeed has, how long they have lived.

Then get back to me .......

No one has said that this is an all or nothing proposition, if you still don't get what I'm attempting to say than I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it?

To the OP ....



I suggest that you stop feeding algae, get it on to a high quality pellet such as NLS, and only add fresh algae back to its diet once your fish is taking the pellets readily. You have a large fish, with large nutrient requirments that algae is not going to supply. That is the short & sweet of it all.

HTH

Where did I say only feed macroalgae? I think I have made my stance clear that I don't believe in feeding only one thing. Bob also is not saying that you should only feed macroalgae, but that it is ideal to have it present for eating.

Seems pretty darn clear to me.

You say that putting fish in a glass box is completely unnatural and so they need a completely different diet. We can't provide a natural diet, but we can provide some natural things like grazing. Just because they now don't need to eat like they do in the wild doesn't mean they shouldn't act like they do in the wild, which is graze all day. That is taking away another natural part of life that we can give them whether it is nutritious or not. That is what you are writing off as unnecessary and kind of a all or nothing approach now that our fish aren't in the ocean and are in our "glass boxes."

That is all I am saying. Not confusing. Very clear and I understand it.

Yes I know this now has nothing to do with nutrition and is more or less about behavior. It just gets back to providing as much of a natural environment as we can.

I 100 percent agree with you that the tang should not be fed algae so that it will start to accept other foods. That was never in question.

 

[nonstophoops]

I have a question for you actually regarding this topic.

How do other pellet foods compare when it comes to nutrition compared to NLS?
Are they all completely inferior, or are they close, but not as good as NLS?

 

[RD.]

Just because they now don't need to eat like they do in the wild doesn't mean they shouldn't act like they do in the wild, which is graze all day. That is taking away another natural part of life that we can give them whether it is nutritious or not.

So even though while in captivity feeding this type of natural food has been proven by the scientific community to be seriously lacking in life sustaining nutrients (see post # 11), using your logic one should allow their tang to fill up on that food, vs one that will keep them far healthier over the long haul, because grazing all day is more natural?

Have I got that straight now?
If that's the case, then no, you still don't get it.

Adding some grazing material is fine, I have no issue with that at all, but adding enough to actually mimic these fishes natural behaviour in the wild (such as grazing all day), is going to be at the detriment of their health.


As far as other foods, all I can say is that I know of no other commercial foods that when fed on an exclusive basis have shown results even remotely close to Pablo's food. Not many people have had success keeping Moorish Idol, Achilles Tang, etc on any type of exclusive diet.

Many people still feel that some of these fish are doomed in captivity, such as Kieron Dodds. Ironically enough, apparently Kieron also believes in the "varied diet" approach, the following is a direct quote that he posted approx 2 years before he wrote his "Still Impossible After All These Years" article on MI's.

Mine eats ON Formula 1&2 (Flake or Frozen), ON Angel (has sponge), ON Prime Reef, NLS 1mm Pellets, Nori, Clams (Half Shell), Mussels (SFBB), SFBB Angel and Butterfly, Mysis (PE and Hikari), SFBB Emerald Entree, sometimes Bloodworms, never Brine Shrimp. His absolute favorite is the NLS, hands down. All are fortified with Selcon and Zoe.

The sum of my knowledge is great, the sum of my ignorance greater still
Kieron Dodds, Administrator - Inside Aquatics

He didn't want to listen either, even when Pablo suggested what the best way was to feed his fish. Kieron thought that he knew what the best dietary approach was for his fish, and I guess ignored Pablo's advice. Kieron goes on in his article about MI's dietary requirements, and how the greatest hurdle is feeding them, and even reported how a diet composed of a large amount of sponge matter would be ideal. Yet by Pablo's MI's we know that in captivity sponge is not required in their diet in any degree.

Let's go back to the study at the U of FL, feeding the flake diet most fish gained weight, yet 27% came down with Hole in the Head/Head & Lateral Line Erosion Syndrome, 16% exhibited exopthalmia, corneal opacity, and apparent blindness, and 39% died before the end of the study.

So even though most of the fish did eat, and gained weight, they were still coming down with disease, with many being nutrient starved to a slow death. And this was/is a very popular marine flake, a brand that anyone reading this would recognize, and perhaps are even feeding. (and no I won't mention the brand)

Again, I have absolutely no issue with those that want to provide seaweed/nori etc for grazing, but if you feed too much of that type of food in the belief that you are somehow mimicking the fishes natural environment, it will be to the detriment of your fishes health. The more you dilute the essential nutrients, the less overall vigor & disease resistance your fish will have. The flakes used in the U of FL study are a prime example of this. How many here would add those flakes to their fishes "varied diet" after reading those kind of results? Yet many hobbyists are apparently doing just that.

So by all means feed seaweed/nori etc to your fish if you feel the need to, just keep in mind that nutrient wise it offers very little to your fishes overall health, if you are already feeding a nutrient dense pellet food that contains a sufficient quantity of aquatic plant matter.

 

[FLESHY]

I have written a very long detailed post for this, but this whole discussion is a thread jack, and it is asinine. Therefore I am done, and not going to contribute any longer.

 

[RD.]

I don't see the OP complaining & would be willing to bet that at least some of the information that has been supplied by myself & others has given him/her some things to consider with regards to feeding that beautiful Naso Tang that they just recently acquired.

My apologies to those so advanced in this area that this discussion has now become asinine to them.

It's not like I don't have better things to do with my time......

Cheers

 

[nonstophoops]

So even though while in captivity feeding this type of natural food has been proven by the scientific community to be seriously lacking in life sustaining nutrients (see post # 11), using your logic one should allow their tang to fill up on that food, vs one that will keep them far healthier over the long haul, because grazing all day is more natural?

Have I got that straight now?
If that's the case, then no, you still don't get it.

Adding some grazing material is fine, I have no issue with that at all, but adding enough to actually mimic these fishes natural behaviour in the wild (such as grazing all day), is going to be at the detriment of their health.


As far as other foods, all I can say is that I know of no other commercial foods that when fed on an exclusive basis have shown results even remotely close to Pablo's food. Not many people have had success keeping Moorish Idol, Achilles Tang, etc on any type of exclusive diet.

Many people still feel that some of these fish are doomed in captivity, such as Kieron Dodds. Ironically enough, apparently Kieron also believes in the "varied diet" approach, the following is a direct quote that he posted approx 2 years before he wrote his "Still Impossible After All These Years" article on MI's.



He didn't want to listen either, even when Pablo suggested what the best way was to feed his fish. Kieron thought that he knew what the best dietary approach was for his fish, and I guess ignored Pablo's advice. Kieron goes on in his article about MI's dietary requirements, and how the greatest hurdle is feeding them, and even reported how a diet composed of a large amount of sponge matter would be ideal. Yet by Pablo's MI's we know that in captivity sponge is not required in their diet in any degree.

Let's go back to the study at the U of FL, feeding the flake diet most fish gained weight, yet 27% came down with Hole in the Head/Head & Lateral Line Erosion Syndrome, 16% exhibited exopthalmia, corneal opacity, and apparent blindness, and 39% died before the end of the study.

So even though most of the fish did eat, and gained weight, they were still coming down with disease, with many being nutrient starved to a slow death. And this was/is a very popular marine flake, a brand that anyone reading this would recognize, and perhaps are even feeding. (and no I won't mention the brand)

Again, I have absolutely no issue with those that want to provide seaweed/nori etc for grazing, but if you feed too much of that type of food in the belief that you are somehow mimicking the fishes natural environment, it will be to the detriment of your fishes health. The more you dilute the essential nutrients, the less overall vigor & disease resistance your fish will have. The flakes used in the U of FL study are a prime example of this. How many here would add those flakes to their fishes "varied diet" after reading those kind of results? Yet many hobbyists are apparently doing just that.

So by all means feed seaweed/nori etc to your fish if you feel the need to, just keep in mind that nutrient wise it offers very little to your fishes overall health, if you are already feeding a nutrient dense pellet food that contains a sufficient quantity of aquatic plant matter.

First off, it would be pretty much impossible to supply them with enough algae to "fill up". You could put sheets of algae in the tank all day long and they are still going to come eat when you offer other things. I of course do not do this, but I don't believe you could feed too much algae and it would be a detriment. The only way that would occur is if you fish decided not to take the food you offer because it has the algae, very unlikely. My fish cruise on over when I drop food in the tank even if there is a sheet of algae in there at the time. My logic was never to feed algae at the expense of other nutrition. I am not sure where you are getting that idea.

Do I have that straight? You seem to not be getting it

Adding any amount for grazing is beginning to mimic its natural environment. You are again taking an all or nothing approach. You don't have to fully mimic the environment or not mimic it at all, there is a middle ground where we can provide what we can(how many times will I say this).

I agree with you that NLS is the food of choice if you are going to solely feed one food, but we don't have to feed only one food like your study example.

Your concept of dilution does not make any sense to me. Here is an example:

I eat 3 fully nutritious meals including all my daily essentials to be healthy. The thing is I really love celery. So all day, besides the meals I eat celery constantly. The celery has no nutritious value, but I like it and it gives me something to do all day.

How does the celery eating somehow dilute the meals and nutrition I get? How is eating celery a detriment to my health? So I shouldn't drink water because it will dilute my food too? If I eat the nutritious food my body will absorb the essentials whether or not I have diluted it. That makes absolutely no sense. That study in no way relates to dilution either. You are relating things that do not go together. The study showed that fish cannot live on a food that is not fully nutritious. It had nothing to do with dilution.

You keep quoting all these people and studies like they are directly supporting your claims. Almost all of them have been just saying NLS is a good food, plain and simple.

To sum this all up, NLS is a great food. Algae can not and should not be the sole form of nutrition for fish. We are in agreement on these issues.