Need ID for my catfish

[horopgedrik]

It will be VERY informative for all of us, who are keeping track of the "capa vs fila vs unknown" ID evolution, if you update the thread with pics as fish grow, every now and then.

Okay, let me start from the beginning, maybe this data will help you, this is all about those 2 species in picture below, 1st fish on the picture which I called "capa" and 3rd fish which I call "unknown sp.":



1.) For the information, my "nurture tank" size is 35 cm wide and 60 cm long. Water temperature is constantly at 32 degree celsius exactly at all day night, pH unknown, dH unknown. (Also please don't condemn me about the tank size I prefer smaller tanks because it allows me to easily monitor the progress. When they already big enough to join the hordes of the beasts, I will move them to my 220 gallon tank )

2.) The first fish I bought was the 3rd fish on the picture, the unknown sp., about 2 and a half months ago. Size when I bought it was around 12 cm SL. Bought directly from importer, he said got this fish from Peru, he convinced me that this fish wasn't "common-undisputed-capa" (which I agreed with him) and in fact he said that it was truly filamentosum (which I doubt about it), and he guaranteed that this fish can grow pass through a meter in length. I just ignored that information, and I finally bought it for around USD 180, it was good deal anyway, and the fish also stunning.

3.) First week on the tank, a lot problem with this unknown sp. fish, got beaten by its first own meal at night (bunch of hungry Osteochilus vittatus and goldfish) with result of lost its dorsal fin, caudal fin, and pectoral fin totally! and lost half of its whiskers also. But I finally got through this bad situation, and all returned to normal one month later.

4.) The second fish I bought was the 1st fish on the picture, the "undisputed" B. capapretum, about 1 months ago. Size when I bought was around 10 cm SL. Bought from different seller, but also direct importer, he told me that this capa also came from Peru. Price around USD 90. No doubt about this fish, and I deliberately bought it because I just want to know the difference between these two specimens (also I want to complete my collections of Brachyplatystoma sp.)

5.) At this time, the size is around 20 cm SL for the unknown sp. and 12 cm for the capa. They both have no problem with feeding. Feed 2-3 goldfish and some live shrimps everyday, mostly at 2 am, and feed when I turned off the lamp, they usually move and hunt in total darkness.

6.) About the behavior, the unknown sp. is far more calm than capa, but sometimes it still shows "madness-surprised" reaction for a while, but never hit the wall so bad. About the capa behaviour, there is no more to be explain here, this little beast is truly madness, just look at my capa's nose, it's a clear hint. Many times my capa suddenly get mad, swim recklessly, bump to every corner, injured its own nose, without any clear reason! But the unknown sp. never do that.

My conclusion on this:
1.) Both fishes have same eye positioning, same "smiling face" or W-shape mouth, pretty long whisker (about same as body length), and same body composition when first time I bought it.
2.) But the 3rd fish has lighter body color, smaller spot, bigger appetite, but more calm behavior than capa's.
3.) Also, the 3rd fish on the picture has faster growth rate than capa, about 2x capa's (around 4 cm per month for my case, and my capa get 2 cm per month), but it still can't match the truly piraiba growth rate, which I was told by my capa's seller that truly piraiba could easily grow from 8 cm to around 50 cm in just 7 months very dazzling 6 cm per month! (that beast specimen is belong to him, and I've seen it)

I wondering this 3rd catfish on my picture probably a real hybrid between B. filamentosum and B. capapretum, or even a totally distinct species from those two. I can imagine that 3rd fish would be much like this in the adult state:
http://www.iquitostimes.com/anthony_fish_1.gif

and my capa would be like this:
http://s858.photobucket.com/user/EnricoRichter/media/album_picCAEQ6P4R.jpg.html

both pictures I've got from google.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

It is rare to come by such a clear, thoughtful, thorough, and informative write-up. Many thank yous.

My capas behavior and growth resembles yours, except mine is in a 240 gal and less flighty.

They have long, very long barbels and streamers and when they feel more than one wall with them, they freak out because the instinct tells them they are trapped, no escape, while the danger, in the form of you, is coming onto them.

Having read all this, I think I will stand by my original assessment, that is, that the 3rd fish is a fila. Your fila went through a horrible, near-death experience and the first month or even two can be discounted. It may make sense to expect it to gain the fila-appropriate growth rate after a few months since the incident and you have had it for only 1.5 months after it visibly more or less recovered from the incident and 2.5 months total, in which time it grew from 12 cm to 20 cm. This growth in itself is impressive.

I think it is on the verge of exploding growth right now. But I don't like your diet. Goldfish are not a good diet, neither live nor dead. They are too fatty, very poorly raised and riddled with pathogens, contain too much thiaminase, and are not the kind of fish Brachyplatystoma has evolved to feed on. If you'd like to know more, look up thiaminase, feeder goldfish issues, etc.

Same goes for crustaceans - they are loaded with thiaminase. I'd not be surprised at all if your fish are already suffering from vitamin B1 deficiency. Watch for bloat as this is one of the symptoms.

And all you offer is goldfish and crustaceans.

Look through these
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/forums/freshwater-diseases-and-health-issues.35/
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...head-thiaminase-what-you-need-to-know.167891/

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Here is a nice, home-grown source of trustworthy info on live feeders http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/live-fish-as-food-nutritional-value-concerns.12521/

 

[horopgedrik]

It is rare to come by such a clear, thoughtful, thorough, and informative write-up. Many thank yous.

My capas behavior and growth resembles yours, except mine is in a 240 gal and less flighty.

They have long, very long barbels and streamers and when they feel more than one wall with them, they freak out because the instinct tells them they are trapped, no escape, while the danger, in the form of you, is coming onto them.

Having read all this, I think I will stand by my original assessment, that is, that the 3rd fish is a fila. Your fila went through a horrible, near-death experience and the first month or even two can be discounted. It may make sense to expect it to gain the fila-appropriate growth rate after a few months since the incident and you have had it for only 1.5 months after it visibly more or less recovered from the incident and 2.5 months total, in which time it grew from 12 cm to 20 cm. This growth in itself is impressive.

I think it is on the verge of exploding growth right now. But I don't like your diet. Goldfish are not a good diet, neither live nor dead. They are too fatty, very poorly raised and riddled with pathogens, contain too much thiaminase, and are not the kind of fish Brachyplatystoma has evolved to feed on. If you'd like to know more, look up thiaminase, feeder goldfish issues, etc.

Same goes for crustaceans - they are loaded with thiaminase. I'd not be surprised at all if your fish are already suffering from vitamin B1 deficiency. Watch for bloat as this is one of the symptoms.

And all you offer is goldfish and crustaceans.

Look through these
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/forums/freshwater-diseases-and-health-issues.35/
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...head-thiaminase-what-you-need-to-know.167891/

Here is a nice, home-grown source of trustworthy info on live feeders http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/live-fish-as-food-nutritional-value-concerns.12521/

Thank you Viktor for your advice, also very helpful information on that links.
I'll try to move just on gambusia as feeder fish, is that better enough option?
Because it's very hard to get pellet feed for predator here, just bought a few days ago from ebay, still waiting for it and I hope it will work with my fishes.

Also just moved all of them around 2 weeks ago to my second tank, really really sad that I lost my tigrinus cf because of it, just a few minutes after it was moved, caused by heart attack maybe, different water parameter, I've tried my best, but nonetheless
Stupid me, lost my tigrinus again, for the second time in this year

Here they are now in my 80 gal, 4' tank:


Last measure it that the B. capapretum was around 15 cm (when it was moved), and the fish on the left was around 25 cm or even more now (still have no idea what the exact species of it, really hybrid?)



And for my "raising" tank, now be a home to my new fish, I hope this is the real deal for B. filamentosum (because I can see striking differences with my previous two fishes), need your opinion:




Seller told me that this is the truly Piraiba B. filamentosum, just bought it 2 weeks ago for around 500 USD (but I took it out from the store 10 days ago).
When I first bought it, seller told me the size was around 5-6 cm.
4 days later when I took it home, I measured it again, it was around 8 cm to caudal peduncle.
And now, this beast at least around 10 cm in length already.
Got stressed during the first 2 days with my tank, eats 1 to 3 live gambusia a day, with the result of about 5 cm growth in total 2 weeks, I hope this is the real deal.
Will keep post the next update for all my 3 piraiba fishes.

 

[mattyice572]

Looks like a tigrinus and a few pariba catfish, be careful mixing them as they may fight

 

[horopgedrik]

Looks like a tigrinus and a few pariba catfish, be careful mixing them as they may fight

Yup, tigrinus little bit more temperamental than the others, but never fight brutally.
However, I lost my tigrinus, died because of heart attack I gues.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Nice!

I will poke a few folks that may be helpful with the "piraiba" ID issues. Hopefully they will provide you with more reliable info.

Gambusia is better than goldfish for sure but I don't feed live to any of my fish at all. Dried foods and pellets are a good option but for my Brachies the staple is thawed fish, pieces or whole. I catch them myself in the ocean, ~14 cu ft a year of 2"-3" herring spp, anchovy, cod, etc.

One can also find a source of cheap fish at a market or "waste" from fish processors. The waste - guts, heads, fins, skin, backbone, etc. - is still quite edible and a good diet for our wet pets. I freeze everything to kill off parasites.

 

[fugupuff]

very interesting thread. Here is a little input from my experience. I've caught a few in the wild, and imported a few from various locations.

Brazil - banned from export, once in a while they get out, usually tiny eyes, small black spots, super long barbels, 6-10x body length, grows fast, not skittish. cost in the thousands per fish when one gets out.

Peru - we import capepretum regularly - and people call them piraiba., they actually do get pretty big still.
from the same Rio nanay system, comes B.rousseauxii which is also a giant, and sometimes vaillanti. B. vaillanti. once in a while there is a fish that is caught that resembles the true filamentosum. Problem is all of the above are banned from export, so what we get is often not accurately identified. I've seen 5 footers pulled out of the river, which resembles the true piraiba, I have it on VHS video when my friends went down there.
From this thread and the original post, I think all of these fish were exported from Peru, and honestly they do look like hybrids, non of them look like the true piraiba. the very last set of fish, the mouth is wrong and back is too high, spots too big, looks like a mix between caprepretum x vaillanti. I do believe they exist in Peru, but just are rare to find, especially small ones

I've caught some in Suriname, and once you see on, its like a goliath tiger, its unmistakeable. I've also caught some in Guyana, and ate a smaller one. Another member on angling team caught a 261 pounder they released.

 

[fugupuff]

this is the first one exported out of Suriname into the hobby to my knowledge, compare this to the Brazil one. The picture is of the same fish 8 months later.

 

[fugupuff]

Here is the Brazil one, these are super expensive and hard to get, but notice the difference from the Suriname one