Reverse osmosis for rays

[jcardona1]

This whole water chemistry thing is pretty frustrating if you think about it. Filter the water down to the point where you must add minerals back to it? Add up the system itself, waste water, membranes, filters, testing equipment, any resins/minerals, the needed room to mix or cost to properly dispense/mix it consistently and it sounds tough to justify.

That's just the cost of keeping expensive fish and trying to provide the best conditions for them IMO. And I don't think it's tough to justify. All you really need to do is look at your local water report. Look at all the crap that is found in it. Chlorine, chloramine, nitrates, ammonia, heavy metals, even small amounts of toxins. You definitely won't see that in the Amazon. An RO unit is a way of getting rid of all that garbage and starting with a clean slate. When you add minerals back, you're only adding back the natural trace minerals, your buffering capacity (kh) and those that make up your water's hardness (gh). A small price to pay when some guys here have enough money in rays to buy a new car

Is TDS the big parameter we're looking at with RO? Get rid of more crap in the water PH comes down along with things like hardness?

Yeah pretty much. TDS is measuring every solid particle in the water. GH only measures magnesium and calcium ions in the water. KH measures carbonate and bicarbonate ions. TDS will measure everything, so it's a better indication of whether you have really hard or soft water, as all these solids affect a fish's internal osmotic processes. Digital TDS meters can be had on eBay for about $15 shipped and are very accurate. Takes all of 2 seconds to test. RO/DI water is completely pure, 0ppm. This means no hardness, no buffering capacity, and a neutral PH. Because you have no gh/kh, your ph can easily swing when any sort of buffer is introduced to the tank. And we all know several things can act as a PH buffer, including driftwood, substrate, etc. This is why using pure water is not a good idea. You either mix it with tap, or add a product like Kent's RO Right.

Is there no way to filter out enough to be where we want to be without going too far (RO). Is it possible to filter down to the point where you can alter TDS without stripping it entirely?

I don't really think there is. My RO unit has a 1 micron sediment filter as its first stage. I have a TDS meters at several points in the unit. My tap ranges from 100-250ppm TDS. After the sediment filter, the readings are the same. I'm not sure what else you can do after a 1 micron filter without going to a full blown RO/DI unit.

 

[rudy]

Night one of dripping 50/50.


Ph dropped throughout the night and seemed to have leveled off from 8.2 to 7.2. Rays are still not eating however perhaps just adjusting....oh yeah in case you did not know why instated this thread. I have 4 p14s that have stopped eating. Seems to be a recurring theme every spring during run off.

I have one female in a separated tank due to getting beat up. Not on RO. She is not eating either. Stressful days at my house...hopefully this works

 

[earthstudent]

Just a few notes on RO water. RO water is a great solvent. It is basically distilled water. RO and distilled water are not "balanced" in that they will try to dissolve what ever minerals they can from what ever source available in an attempt to acquire chemical balance. I have read studies that say humans should not drink pure RO water or distilled water because it can strip minerals from your body. Same reason you would not want to use pure PO or distilled water in an aquarium.

Not to say an RO unit can not be useful. In a salt water tank application, RO is very useful because you are either replacing evaporated water to which RO would be almost identical to what was lost through evaporation or you would be adding a salt mix that "should" add back the needed minerals as long as you are using a good salt mix.

In a freshwater application you can use an RO unit to control the mineral content of the water by using a mix of RO and reject water or tap.

BUT you should never use pure RO water in any freshwater application. Because it will literally suck the minerals out of the fish over time. This may take a long time depending on the other available minerals (other things in the tank like substrate, rocks and wood...) but none the less will gradually and slowly harm the fish if there is not enough minerals in the water for it to chemically balance and stop dissolving minerals from where ever it can.

Do a test if you do not believe me. Set up a small 10g aquarium with nothing in the tank other than a synthetic filter system (no rocks or gravel only plastic materials that can not leach minerals into the water) and ONLY put RO water in that tank. Get it cycled and put what ever fish you want in it (be sure to very slowly acclimate) and I am willing to bet that fish will die prematurely.

Now before I get 5 people jumping down my throat saying they have been using RO for years with no problems. Like I said, it may take a long time to effect the fish depending on other things in the tank and in some cases it may actually be fine because there is enough stuff in the tank that will dissolve and balance the water to a safe level. If you have the correct minerals in your gravel or rocks, you may be OK for quite some time but eventually the rocks may dissolve all there readily available minerals into the water and then the fish may be the next most readily available source.

Many things in nature take the path of least resistance and natural chemistry is no exception. If the RO water can dissolve minerals from things in the tank more readily than the fish, it will. But when the fish become the more readily available source, it WILL suck the minerals out of them. This may tank a long time and in some cases longer than the fishes expected life but for long lived fish like stingrays, it would be a gamble not worth taking IMO.

 

[flamenco-t]

This whole water chemistry thing is pretty frustrating if you think about it. Filter the water down to the point where you must add minerals back to it? Add up the system itself, waste water, membranes, filters, testing equipment, any resins/minerals, the needed room to mix or cost to properly dispense/mix it consistently and it sounds tough to justify.

It's really not that difficult. You're getting rid of ALL elements and mineral by doing RODI and then you;re adding the BENEFICIAL mineral and elements back in it.

You can't just remove a specific elements that you don't want in water (such as nitrate, arsenic, ammonia, phosphate and etc), you'd have to get rid of all. Once you have pure water, then you can add the beneficial elements back to it (iron, calcium and etc)

This is why RODI is crucial on reef system because most corals are sensitive to unwanted elements. When you add the salt mix, you're adding the beneficial elements and minerals back in the water mix

Stan

 

[skynoch]

The problem the guys in Calgary are having is during the soring runoff from the mountains either something in the water or something the water treatment plants are adding is affecting the stingrays so bad that they stop eating and are losing some. They allready drip with sediment and carbon filters but this isn't helping so what they are trying to do is take a shotgun approach to this and get rid of everything and see if this helps out. I know rudy has lost rays at this time of year but not knowing specifically what it is this would be the only approach they could do. Later on after the runoff slows down the water is fine and the r/o untits are not needed anymore.

 

[RD.]

our water supply also naturally contains fluoride and our city waterworks adds .7mg/l. 1.5mg/pl is not reccomended for humans so you take what we get in the river naturally add it with .7 and we are probably near 1mg of fluoride that the rays absorb

I guess you missed this last time I posted it........


Fluoride is a natural component of the Bow & Elbow Rivers, Calgary only adds enough fluoride to bring the natural level up to 0.7 mg/l, and only when required, to which they have been doing since 1991. They actually lowered the amount in 1998, from a target of 1.0 mg/l, to the current level of 0.7 mg/l. Hardly anything to be concerned about.


Just a thought, but do any of you guys in cowtown check the chlorine levels during spring run off?

On the City of Calgary's water quality report they list free chlorine residual at 0.67 – 1.36 mg/l, with a limit of .2, which in the grand scheme of things is pretty minimal, having said during spring run off or periods of high rain when bacteria count is at a high, that chlorine value may double, or even triple? It may be more than what can be removed by carbon blocks, and if you are using Prime you may want to match the free chlorine value with the quantity of Prime required, and in order to do so you need to know the actual chlorine level of your tap water.

pH shock is a misnomer, it doesn't exist. The real problem is TDS shock, and during this time of the year the TDS values may also differ greatly from what one typically sees over the rest of the year.

Just a couple of areas that I would be looking into.

 

[earthstudent]

The OP and others in that area are probably doing the best thing by using an RO unit in the manor discussed here. Getting rid of everything and then adding back just enough is probably the easiest thing that can be done in that situation. The only problem is that it seams no one knows exactly what is the element/s that is causing the problem so in this specific situation, I think I would use a store bought RO additive over adding tap or waist RO back to the RO water.

 

[jcardona1]

Night one of dripping 50/50.


Ph dropped throughout the night and seemed to have leveled off from 8.2 to 7.2. Rays are still not eating however perhaps just adjusting....oh yeah in case you did not know why instated this thread. I have 4 p14s that have stopped eating. Seems to be a recurring theme every spring during run off.

I have one female in a separated tank due to getting beat up. Not on RO. She is not eating either. Stressful days at my house...hopefully this works

You really should pick up a TDS meter. This is the one I bought, and it works great: http://cgi.ebay.com/Hanna-Primo-TDS...668?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519926e3a4

PH isn't really telling you anything. As RD mentioned, you need to be concerned with TDS. Check the TDS of your tank, check the TDS of your tap, and check the TDS of your RO/tap mixture. Do some research and find the TDS levels of rays in the wild, then do some experimenting with tap and RO. Prepare some mixtures in a cup of RO/tap that gives you the desired TDS, that will give you your ration. Then you take the ratio and apply it on a larger scale to your tank. Over the course of a few weeks the TDS will start to come down. In my wild discus tank, I've been using pure RO to bring my TDS down. Once it comes down to my desired levels, I'll start with the RO Right product. My tank started at 350ppm TDS before RO. With 40g daily water changes for a few weeks now, I'm at about 50-60ppm TDS. I still have a little bit to go, aiming for 30-40ppm.

 

[calgaryflames]

The problem I'n our water is both runoff and what they are adding.if we were to use the waste water we mayswell be using our regular drip systems.our city also has two water supplies.one for north and one for south.it's not just spring time ,I'n the winter they switch our water supply and mix both which come from separate rivers.the main part for me using it will be to remove hardness ,fluoride and the metals they are using for sanitizing the water.i think if we ran the waste water it would simply be adding the hardness back and the metals.don't know if carbon takes out fluoride do any of you guys.we use alot I'n our water.theirs a party trying to end the usage of fluoride all together.just trying to eliminate any possibilities .our water is also very unstable right now.Rudy tested his last night it was ph of 8.2 and mine down further south was low like 7 or even 6.8.

 

[skynoch]

I guess you missed this last time I posted it........


Fluoride is a natural component of the Bow & Elbow Rivers, Calgary only adds enough fluoride to bring the natural level up to 0.7 mg/l, and only when required, to which they have been doing since 1991. They actually lowered the amount in 1998, from a target of 1.0 mg/l, to the current level of 0.7 mg/l. Hardly anything to be concerned about.


Just a thought, but do any of you guys in cowtown check the chlorine levels during spring run off?

On the City of Calgary's water quality report they list free chlorine residual at 0.67 – 1.36 mg/l, with a limit of .2, which in the grand scheme of things is pretty minimal, having said during spring run off or periods of high rain when bacteria count is at a high, that chlorine value may double, or even triple? It may be more than what can be removed by carbon blocks, and if you are using Prime you may want to match the free chlorine value with the quantity of Prime required, and in order to do so you need to know the actual chlorine level of your tap water.

pH shock is a misnomer, it doesn't exist. The real problem is TDS shock, and during this time of the year the TDS values may also differ greatly from what one typically sees over the rest of the year.

Just a couple of areas that I would be looking into.

I know talking to the water treatment plant manager here in Drayton Valley the only thing they increase is there floculant to help bind the dirt particles but don't touch the chlorine so maybe something in Calgary's floculant or what they use effects the rays. I come from even a smaller community where it's a community well and the only thing increased is chlorine but my sediment and 2 carbon filters dripping at a rate of even 600 gallons a day can cope with the increase so I don't think chlorine would be the issue with these guys who are maybe dripping 50-100 gallons a day through the same filters. All I know is I'm glad I don't have these problems every year. Good Luck Tim and I hope you can get this figured out.
I do remember talking about ph swings and tds swings in another thread and someone saying ph swings are a myth and it's the tds or gh or kh or one of the three that is a problem but I know when co2 injection is used to alter ph it will affect your fish so ph swings also must affect the fish unless I'm missing something here also.