Whats wrong with my Lyonsi?

[PDRed302]

Quick and dirty:

Tank:
345gal. 101"x40"x20"
78.5F.
Nitrate: <10
Nitrite: 0
PH: 7.2

Occupants include:
1 x Flagtail Prochilodus (Semaprochilodus insignis)
5 x Silver Dollar (Metynnis argenteus)
1 x Senegal Bichir (Polypterus senegalus)
1 x Salvini Cichlid (Cichlasoma Salvini)
1 x Redhead Severum (Heros sp. Rotkeil)
1 x Electric Blue Acara (Aequidens pulcher)
6 x Denisoni Barb (Puntius denisonii)
1 x Firemouth (Thorichthys meeki)
1 x Nicaraguan Cichlid - Female (Hypsophrys nicaraguensis)
2 x Buenos Aires Tetra (Hyphessobrycon anisitsi)
8 x Rainbow Cichlid (Archocentrus multispinosus)
1 x Lyonsi Cichlid (Amphilophus lyonsi)

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...ontinues-my-345-sa-ca-re-build-thread.687794/

The tank is on a 1gph drip system and all of the occupants appear happy and healthy, eating well and a pair of my Rainbows just dropped a clutch of eggs. The tank mates are also on what I feel is a fairly diverse and healthy diet.

Problem:

A few weeks ago I noticed that my Lyonsi was showing exaggerated sensory pits and some strange markings on the underside of his jaw. After another week or two it escalated and now its full blown crazy. From first glance it appears to be HTH but I'm not sure how or why its happening. I feel like my general tank husbandry is pretty on point; large water change once a week on top of what the drip system is doing, 5x a week feeding, lots of practice...

Is this HTH, is it something else?

Anyone Know how to treat it?

As of 2 weeks ago, I moved "Lion-O" to his own hospital tank (20t) he's in the same water conditions except that I am adding Melafix and Pimafix (per instructions) daily and doing 2x a week water changes.

Pics that show the damage taken in hospital tank, this is how he looks as of today (2 weeks of hospital tank treatment):

Front:


Side: (note the lower jaw line)


Until last night no other fish in the tank has shown any sign of infection or anything negative of any sort, however as of last night when feeding I noticed that my Salvini was showing partially exaggerated pits along his nostril area and above his eyes on what I guess you would call the forehead.

Anyone have any idea on what this is, how to fix it for both the affected fish (Lyonsi) and how to prevent it in the tank?

Thanks for any help

 

[duanes]

I didn't see it in the 1st pic until I messed with it a bit, could be HLLE.
To me 24 gallon per day is a bit wimpy for that size tank, and may mean there is a build up of pheromones or hormones that need a stronger drip, or else a large water change per week to dilute them.
Or there may be some other stressor in the tank you are not noticing, like aggression.

 

[PDRed302]

View attachment 1314438
I didn't see it in the 1st pic until I messed with it a bit, could be HLLE.
To me 24 gallon per day is a bit wimpy for that size tank, and may mean there is a build up of pheromones or hormones that need a stronger drip, or else a large water change per week to dilute them.
Or there may be some other stressor in the tank you are not noticing, like aggression.
View attachment 1314439

Thanks for the heads up!

I figured with weekly water changes and the drip I'd be in ok shape (ran the same setup before without the drip system) , but I'll grab a new emitter on Monday and bump it to 2gph... doubt that will equal much of a change in my monthly bill.

On a side note I just got done remodeling half my house from a flood (not fish related), so if its stress induced, then I'm sure that had something to do with it.

For now I'll bump my water changes and keep an eye on the stock.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[duanes]

The problem with a drip system IMO, is that if run as a just "drip", the new water runs into the tank so slowly, it is easily "saturated" with the by-products of metabolism, and although it seems like a lot, in reality, and also takes the old water (and its by-products) out just that slowly.
2 gallons per hour is basically only 336 gallons for the entire week, (almost a 100% water change), but the new water is quickly saturated when dripped, and does not have the impact of a large water change. When you do a large water change, you take out lots of the "bad" stuff, replacing it with lots of good water, like a rain storm, or in a river where fish are under constant 100% water changes every minute of every day in nature.
In my tanks (I had about 1000+ gals), I'd do 30-40% every other day (including vacuum of detritus), so @ 120% per week (about the same as you) but with those changes, lots of old water was removed diluting the metabolism by-products such as pheromones, hormones, bacteria in detritus, fungi, all those things that can become "chronic" problems to fish health.
To be as effective as large water changes, a drip needs to be (at minimum) a stream. And would need help from metabolism by-product plants.
There are plenty of uses for old water, gardens, lawns, even flushing toilets, so in reality if will not be wasted if creative, even in water dry areas.

 

[philipraposo1982]

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/EffectiveWaterChange.php

I found this online. I don't know anything about drip systems but with this calculator it should help you figure out the math easier.

It does look like hlle to me. Any other symptoms besides the pits?

 

[PYRU]

The problem with a drip system IMO, is that if run as a just "drip", the new water runs into the tank so slowly, it is easily "saturated" with the by-products of metabolism, and although it seems like a lot, in reality, and also takes the old water (and its by-products) out just that slowly.
2 gallons per hour is basically only 336 gallons for the entire week, (almost a 100% water change), but the new water is quickly saturated when dripped, and does not have the impact of a large water change. When you do a large water change, you take out lots of the "bad" stuff, replacing it with lots of good water, like a rain storm, or in a river where fish are under constant 100% water changes every minute of every day in nature.
In my tanks (I had about 1000+ gals), I'd do 30-40% every other day (including vacuum of detritus), so @ 120% per week (about the same as you) but with those changes, lots of old water was removed diluting the metabolism by-products such as pheromones, hormones, bacteria in detritus, fungi, all those things that can become "chronic" problems to fish health.
To be as effective as large water changes, a drip needs to be (at minimum) a stream. And would need help from metabolism by-product plants.
There are plenty of uses for old water, gardens, lawns, even flushing toilets, so in reality if will not be wasted if creative, even in water dry areas.

I thought about this when researching for a continuous drip. I've started looking at auto water change systems. Trying to figure out how to bring the water in without such a huge temp drop to avoid the barrel method.

 

[PYRU]

I think you should be pretty good with waterchanges on top of your drip.

What is your ph, kh, etc? What ph is your tap?

 

[PDRed302]

I think you should be pretty good with waterchanges on top of your drip.

What is your ph, kh, etc? What ph is your tap?

Nitrate <10ppm
Nitrite 0
GH 150
Chlorine 0
KH 120
PH 7.2
Ammonia 0

Tap comes out at about 7.2 to 7.4

I have a strong feeling that the added dust from construction along with the stress (noise, extra movement, etc definitely has something to do with this.

As far as any other symptoms... the only other thing I've noticed is that since moving the Lyonsi to the hospital tank is his appetite is now non existant.

Since this seems to be a water/tank problem and not a fish illness problem, he will move back over to the display tank asap, since he was eating just fine when in the display; after a few water changes of course.

I'm doing a 50% w/c and vaccum this afternoon and will he doing another on Monday when I switch out the drip emmiter.

I've also noticed a bit of territorial aggression between a few of the fish, so I picked up some new drift wood and that will be going in there Monday as well.

Hopefully with the water changes, faster drip, completed construction and new territories I can nip this in the bud.

Thanks again to everyone for posting so far!

 

[duanes]

If there are more alpha fish in the tank than the lyonsi (if it was added later than another cichlid (such as the generally more aggressive salvini even in 300+ gallons), the aggression can be subtle (and chemical, in the case of pheromones) this can (in theory) cause disease for a more subordinate individual), the build up of pheromones are a reason I suggested water changes.
Although all parameters look good, there are things we can't test for.
Of course as you suggest, it could be as simple construction dust, which large water changes might help.