That's OK. I was in a bad mood yesterday. Probly didn't need to be a dick about it. Thanks again for taking the time to edit your post - it IS much easier to read now.dwilder;3559348; said:
Why does everyone overdo the bio?
- Thread starter cvermeulen
- Start date
Oh I totally agree its not wrong to go a bit overboard. And it can be pretty satisfying to build a stand that's pretty much invincible. But I also agree some people take it to the extreme. Kind of to a point where its just not necessary. I guess its kind of hard to pin down why exactly that thought process has gotten to this extreme.cvermeulen;3559250; said:
I like to think looking through all the pages of this thread that there is a battlefield of information with so many opposing sides and opinions and the only real solid rules being this: lots of biofiltration and lots of water changes = healthy fish.
To be honest, I feel like it would be kind of refreshing if someone could finally show some real tests and proof and show how much is necessary and how effective it is and how well it could take care of extra load like uneaten food or a fish dying. Now that would be something.
The basis of my decisions for filter building was to accommodate the worst scenario for the tank from the get go. The idea being that when the tank reaches a heavy bio-capacity, the system to handle it will already be in place.
In these large canister filters the mechanical media is the bio-media and they actually filter better mechanically with the more crap that is caked into the media.
Right now I'm probably using less than 5% of the media as bio-media, but as the fish get larger the use will go up. The tank is going to evolve, with everything being small now, but as certain of the fish get huge, by then the smaller fish will be dying out and then will be replaced with much more larger fish to go with the larger existing tank mates.
I have lots of schooling little fish with some clown loaches and silver dollars. By the time most of these smaller fish die of old age, the clown and weather loaches will be pretty big along with the silver dollars. Then I'll replace them with Bala sharks and Tinfoils and eventually will have cichlids or bass in there too.
In these large canister filters the mechanical media is the bio-media and they actually filter better mechanically with the more crap that is caked into the media.
Right now I'm probably using less than 5% of the media as bio-media, but as the fish get larger the use will go up. The tank is going to evolve, with everything being small now, but as certain of the fish get huge, by then the smaller fish will be dying out and then will be replaced with much more larger fish to go with the larger existing tank mates.
I have lots of schooling little fish with some clown loaches and silver dollars. By the time most of these smaller fish die of old age, the clown and weather loaches will be pretty big along with the silver dollars. Then I'll replace them with Bala sharks and Tinfoils and eventually will have cichlids or bass in there too.
I loved Brians post explaining the reason why people overuse Bio Media is due to fear. Fear of the unknown. People do not know how much they need so they use a ton.
　
I think its thoroughly understood by most that extra bio media does not equal more bacteria. It just offers a place for more bacteria to live if/when it is needed.
　
I believe strongly on the basic concept of error on the side of caution and I do not look down on anyone who uses extreme amounts of Bio Media to utilize this philosophy.
　
　
One difficulty with this specific subject, If you use a ton of Bio Media, and only 1% of it is actually needed, then your set up will work flawlessly. Therefore this user will share their experience that this much is needed. Which is obviously false.
　
The only way to know how much is needed is to minimize Bio Media until you do not have enough, then add a little until you barely have enough. Once this level is determined, you then and only then know how little is needed.
　
Naturally it is not advisable to only use as much as needed, and I completely advocate using more than needed, but using 1.5 or 2 times what is needed is logical. Using 400 times as much as needed is excessive.
　
　
So I suggest you use as much as you want. But when others ask how much they should use, wait for someone who has some experience learning what is needed. If you are truly eager to know what is needed or be a par tof that conversation, by all means, do some experiments!
　
Ive personally never once owned or seen a tank that lacked enough surface area to house enough bacteria. I accept there may be a few out there, but they are the grossly overstocked bare bottom tanks with no décor and no Bio Media.
　
　
I also completely agree that we should ask for facts to support why people believe what they say. To my knowledge very few studies have been put out except claims by manufacturers who have the potential to profit from misleading people. Naturally these I dont trust.
　
We do all know that the up to XXX gal tank rating on filters is nonsense. Although I do wonder if they are simply talking about Bio Filtration.
　
I think its thoroughly understood by most that extra bio media does not equal more bacteria. It just offers a place for more bacteria to live if/when it is needed.
　
I believe strongly on the basic concept of error on the side of caution and I do not look down on anyone who uses extreme amounts of Bio Media to utilize this philosophy.
　
　
One difficulty with this specific subject, If you use a ton of Bio Media, and only 1% of it is actually needed, then your set up will work flawlessly. Therefore this user will share their experience that this much is needed. Which is obviously false.
　
The only way to know how much is needed is to minimize Bio Media until you do not have enough, then add a little until you barely have enough. Once this level is determined, you then and only then know how little is needed.
　
Naturally it is not advisable to only use as much as needed, and I completely advocate using more than needed, but using 1.5 or 2 times what is needed is logical. Using 400 times as much as needed is excessive.
　
　
So I suggest you use as much as you want. But when others ask how much they should use, wait for someone who has some experience learning what is needed. If you are truly eager to know what is needed or be a par tof that conversation, by all means, do some experiments!
　
Ive personally never once owned or seen a tank that lacked enough surface area to house enough bacteria. I accept there may be a few out there, but they are the grossly overstocked bare bottom tanks with no décor and no Bio Media.
　
　
I also completely agree that we should ask for facts to support why people believe what they say. To my knowledge very few studies have been put out except claims by manufacturers who have the potential to profit from misleading people. Naturally these I dont trust.
　
We do all know that the up to XXX gal tank rating on filters is nonsense. Although I do wonder if they are simply talking about Bio Filtration.
So I take it you'll be no longer taking part in discussions regarding tanks larger the 125g or that actually house "Monster" type fish?nc_nutcase;3560636; said:
As for my "experience" as to what is needed. Well I'm not going to start removing portions of my bio media. Just as I won't be replacing the 4x4s with 2x4s on my 450g stand. Finding out the absolute minimum may require experiencing a failure, and that can be a high price to pay for knowledge that has little return value.
If you really feel as if you should be able to regulate who can or cannot take part in discussions or give advise, you could always start up your own forum
Wow, this thread is insane. I will answer the OP's question from my own experience:
I overdo the bio because I like having three canister filters on a tank that really only needs 2. If one dies, I don't have to worry. I'll just pick up another, or fix the one that broke, or whatever, and my fish probably don't even know the difference.
We have ammonia in our tap water. After a waterchange, there is ammonia present in the tank. I would consider this an ammonia spike. The next morning, all ammonia is gone.
Both of these examples prove that having extra room for bacteria to grow is not a bad thing. In fact, it's quite helpful.
I overdo bio on all of my tanks. The filter on my 1,000 gallon pond is about the size of two 125's stacked on top of each other, and it's full of Matala sheets.
People have this really weird attitude about filtration. "You don't even need all of those canisters!" Why does anyone really care about how many filters a person uses? I may spend a lot of money on filtration, but a lot of people throw money down the drain every day on crap that won't even be around in a year or two. I don't see any problem with "overdoing the bio" if I see ways in which it helps me, and if that's how I choose to spend my money.
This is just my opinion, obviously, and I just wanted to take a stab at answering the OP's question.
I overdo the bio because I like having three canister filters on a tank that really only needs 2. If one dies, I don't have to worry. I'll just pick up another, or fix the one that broke, or whatever, and my fish probably don't even know the difference.
We have ammonia in our tap water. After a waterchange, there is ammonia present in the tank. I would consider this an ammonia spike. The next morning, all ammonia is gone.
Both of these examples prove that having extra room for bacteria to grow is not a bad thing. In fact, it's quite helpful.
I overdo bio on all of my tanks. The filter on my 1,000 gallon pond is about the size of two 125's stacked on top of each other, and it's full of Matala sheets.
People have this really weird attitude about filtration. "You don't even need all of those canisters!" Why does anyone really care about how many filters a person uses? I may spend a lot of money on filtration, but a lot of people throw money down the drain every day on crap that won't even be around in a year or two. I don't see any problem with "overdoing the bio" if I see ways in which it helps me, and if that's how I choose to spend my money.
This is just my opinion, obviously, and I just wanted to take a stab at answering the OP's question.
We rely on bio-filtration on our fish farm. We use gravity feed from our tanks to the bio filtration filters these are filled with recycled plastic pallet straping. This is a very effective method for removing ammonia, nitrites, and some nitrates from the system. These systems are both small (35 Gal) filters to large (1,000 Gal) and the water is returned either to a grow bed (aquaponics) or directly back to the fish tank using an air lift system. In my opinion the more surface area for the bacteria (several types) the better. Of course we have about 1Lb of fish for every 2 gallons of water much different than most fish keepers to be sure. But, as a general rule you want at least 1/3 of the volume of the tank to be equivalent to the size of the filter. Rod <*(((>< <>< <><
