Your thoughts on breeding BATMAN rays?

[DavidW]

It happens occasionally in the wild as well. The recent prevailing theory ( not tested) is that it is probably caused by too high temperatures during fertilization and early gestation.
Most ray keepers keep their rays temp much higher than wild conditions and without any natural temp oscillation.
High temps are a very well known mechanism in genetics for birth defects across all species.

There was a decent discussion here
http://www.roggenforum.lode.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3210

 

[lincolngoh]

I buy that reason too David, but does that mean I should not try to have kids if I have soaking my nutz in a hot tub?

..yes but seriously I'm hoping for an answer.

 

[DavidW]

In humans birth defects through high temperatures are usually caused when the mother has some kind of fever during early pregnancy and is not able to thermoregulate her body temperature properly. as little as a 5 degree difference can have drastic effects.
Rays cannot self regulate their temperature, and high temp is the one universal throughout fishkeeping. Most keep their rays around 80F and higher where the average temperature in ray rivers is usually around 72F with a day/night oscillation.
As for your nads..well....this from wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen_quality

Sperm are heat-sensitive, and cannot endure high temperatures. The body has compensatory mechanisms, like the cremaster muscle relaxing and letting the testicle hang further away from the warm body, sweating and a countercurrent exchange of blood cooling inflowing blood. However, despite these compensations, there are activities that should not be performed too often, in order of preventing infertility due to heat;

sauna sessions
bathing for a long time in hot water
Long-time tanning bed sessions

so now you know

 

[lincolngoh]

Theres probably a variety of factors contributing to it that increases the possibility of bat man rays. Mine occurred in a cooler tank and occurred twice when I moved the female ray during pregnancy.

The other 2 times I left her be, the pups turned out fine.

Thanks for the info David.

 

[earthstudent]

It seems to me that not enough is known about the batman (I will call it a deformity) deformity and since it does have an effect on the rays health and sensory system it should be explored just so we know the cause and we can try to avoid it's occurrence.

I will add that IF it was found to be a genetic problem, I do not think it should be encouraged and I would say it would be wrong (unethical) to breed them on purpose.

Encouraged breeding of deformities has been practiced for thousands of years. Many deformities that are encouraged have no effect on the organisms quality of life in a domestic situation. Like color in fish or flowers or the sweetness of a tomato. Those things are far different than selective breeding for things that effect an animal in a way the batman deformity effects a ray. It would be like breeding the scent ability out of a dog, taking away or reducing the effectiveness of one of it's senses. Granted, that animal may not know the difference since it would be born that way, it is still a moral issue and I feel it would be morally wrong. Will people still do it? Probably, but I would not support it in any way.

 

[Tor-Eriik]

First off, David , get a life, you read to much *joke* your a smart man, and i enjoy reading your posts!Second, i agree with earthstudent, for me it would be wrong to support this kind of breeding. Would i kill my youngster if it were a batman, probably not. I would have loved the specialty with it, but i would never buye one. Whats next if we support it.

 

[bcfd144]

It could be natures way of evolving a species?

Not tin this way. A ray needs its front disk to help trap food. I wouldnt think that one of the most important parts of a ray would evolve out.
I know batman rays can survive, but do we really think that out in the wild, they have a fighting chance.

I say no to the poll

 

[lincolngoh]

Looking at the way the world is heading. You may think that ATF are much better suited to survive compared to a Ranchu but do you think there are less Ranchu goldfish than ATFs in the world?

Goldfish with body structures and colors unsuitable to survive in the wild are by far the most common fish. You don' see wild herds or flocks of chicken and cows either, but they rank among the most common bovine and avians around.

A deformity by definition decreases the chances of survival and here the definition fails. Especially when humans come into the equation.

I think that people who would kill a batman ray when someone is prepared to pay for and care for it are just plain cruel and evil.

 

[earthstudent]

Looking at the way the world is heading. You may think that ATF are much better suited to survive compared to a Ranchu but do you think there are less Ranchu goldfish than ATFs in the world?

Goldfish with body structures and colors unsuitable to survive in the wild are by far the most common fish. You don' see wild herds or flocks of chicken and cows either, but they rank among the most common bovine and avians around.

A deformity by definition decreases the chances of survival and here the definition fails. Especially when humans come into the equation.

I think that people who would kill a batman ray when someone is prepared to pay for and care for it are just plain cruel and evil.

I don't think ANYONE (unless I missed something) is saying they would kill a batman ray pup if they had one. I am pretty sure the discussion her is about trying to breed them on purpose.

And apparently fruit is just fruit over there because I consider apples to be different from oranges.