Are you doing it right? GRENADE :-))

do you agree?

  • to hell with you old timer

    Votes: 22 20.2%
  • this actually makes sense

    Votes: 87 79.8%

  • Total voters
    109

DavidW

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MFK Member
Apr 5, 2005
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A Rant and some general opinions on hobbyists’ ray husbandry, noticing the huge increase in reported ray health issues.
A few of the things I say here may be arguable , but generally not in the context of aquarium husbandry.

It is a truism that the closer you can replicate the natural habitat the better your ray will do in your tank.
Some Amazonian river conditions are always going to be impossible to replicate. Most especially conductivity/mineral content, which if duplicated in a tank will result in pH crashes due to lack of any buffers, where in Amazonia pH is maintained by the sheer volume and turnover of water.
Other aspects are much easier to control .
Water temperature is at the top of this list. It seems that many people are keeping their rays at a fairly constant 84F or even higher.
In my opinion this is too high as a constant and is probably a big contributing factor to the increased incidences of bacterial and/or fungal infections and perhaps in the ‘batman’ defect as well. When you constantly race the system it will break down easier.
Most of the rays we keep are not found in the Amazon River itself but in its tributaries. The main Amazon/Putamayo/Salimoes river water conditions are different enough to form a natural soft barrier and are part of the explanation for the large amount of ray variations between different Amazon tributaries.
The water temperatures of many of the tributaries where our rays have evolved are remarkably similar. They range between 72F and 82F on a day/night cycle, varying a little within this range between flood/not-flood seasons. Keeping in mind that water stratifies in temperature layers and rays are mostly bottom dwellers where the water is always cooler and are active at night, again when the water is cooling down from the daytime temperature gains, it is safe to say that rays are optimized for the lower end of this temperature range.
High temperatures are good to help a ray start eating again after catch/holding/shipping stress but should not be used for long periods of time, but a week to ten days is long enough.
Speaking from my own experience, and I had some good success breeding several ray variants, this is how I replicated as best I could the day/night temperature rise and fall: 2 sets of heaters, one set on a timer with the lights on a 12hour photoperiodic cycle at the higher temperature (for me 78-80F), the second set at the lower temperature (for me 72-74F), allowing the temperature to fall at night, but to a controlled minimum.
There are several benefits to this approach:
Dissolved oxygen content increases. This is beneficial for your rays and also for your biofilter as it becomes more efficient. Your water will appear clearer. Your rays may eat a little less, metabolizing less waste, giving your filter less to deal with. Aggression is reduced between individuals. Pups, especially sensitive to bacterial issues, are more likely to survive . The lower temperature and less food and activity will in the long run probably extend the life span of your rays and save you money on your power and food bills too!
Another big benefit is that you are less likely to incubate and have an outbreak of some random bacterial or fungal problems in the first place. And if you do want to raise the temperature for any reason your heaters have plenty of range left.

On the subject of temperature and treating any bacterial problems:
Firstly, It is considered medically unethical to prescribe a medication without a correct identification of the specific disease and its med sensitivities, but people here with limited experience recommend using meds too easily when veterinarians would be very reluctant to do the same.

I disagree with raising the temperature as part of any medication protocol. For temperature to have an affect against bacteria you would need to raise it to the low 100’S F, and many bacteria are only killed by autoclaving, obviously not possible with a ray in the water. Raising temperature to ineffective higher levels only incubates bacteria, speeding up its reproductive time , which is one way they evolve resistance. Some bacteria can double their population every 20 minutes, the warmer the water the faster this happens. Bacteria are much more adaptable to temperature change than most fish are. Therefore raising the temperature is usually counterproductive.
If you are confident with your chemistry abilities then lowering pH is an effective way to assist against bacteria. Many medications become ‘stronger’ at lower pH, toxicity increases as pH decreases, and many bacteria, at least most of the ones you are going to find yourself struggling with, can become biostatic at pH5.5 and below. Interestingly this coincides with the point that toxic ammonia is converted into non-toxic ammonium. Manipulating pH like this required experience and is a tricky proposition for the inexperienced aquarist and therefore probably better left alone, because it also renders your biofilter dormant, but high pH, above the natural range from the biotope, will obviously cause a degree of stress as well as being more hospitable for bad bacteria to thrive.
Higher temperature also shortens the half-life of many antibiotics and several of the more commonly used antibiotics are daylight sensitive as well, some can become inactive or exhausted in your tank in 4-8 hours. Add to this the strong possibility that you are not using the most effective antibiotic against your bacterial problem due not knowing what the actual bacteria is or its drug sensitivities and what you are doing is risking creating drug resistant bacterial infections for all to share.
Also, if you start a course of antibiotics finish it. Just because symptoms may disappear does not mean the underlying cause is eradicated. An incomplete treatment could easily lead to a situation where the med won’t work the next time the problem occurs.
Overdose of antibiotics is not needed, although dose frequency can be increased. Large water changes between each dose are recommended, i.e.: daily. It needs to be said that if you were doing large daily water changes you probably wouldn’t have a problem in the first place.

Use of salt at more than 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons for bacterial or fungal infections is largely redundant and further stresses the ray at a time when it is already stressed. Salt helps prevent secondary infections and can aid in osmoregulation when there are open sores while the primary infection is treated or naturally recovered from. It should never be used permanently. Salt and Antibiotics can both retard the efficiency of your biofilter to some degree, although biofiltration bacteria adapt to either condition there is a lag and you risk causing a major ammonia spike. The more you use the more damage you do, at a time, with a sick ray, when really you need everything to be at its most pristine and efficient.
Before you even use an anti-parasitic medication are you sure you are using the right med and that there is a parasite present or are you just guessing? A simple microscope will fairly easily reveal to an experienced aquarist parasite eggs in any discharged feaces, which can be identified from pictures found easily on the web, and then treated with the correct drug, instead of the shotgun method. You spend a lot on your rays, go the extra yard!
Anti-parasitics do not need to be overdosed. Medications like Praziquantel work perfectly well as a ‘long bath’ at the recommended dose if you do the treatment protocol correctly ( i.e.: massive water change, 1 dose, 3 days, then change water each day, 7th day re-dose and repeat for tape worms, 10-14 day repeat for gill flukes) Some people (including me) have reported skin irritations from Prazi use, so to be safe, use rubber gloves if you are messing about with treated water, another reason to be cautious when advocating the casual use of this medication.
Metronidazole doesn’t just treat protozoa , it also treats anaerobic bacteria, which is probably the real cause of some problems attributed to parasites in your tanks. There is no need to overdose with this drug either, although it can be safely used daily instead of alternate days during treatment. Change 50% or more water with each new dose, remember, you’ve got to keep the water pristine. At the completion of any medical regime change large amounts of water and filter over activated carbon to remove residual medication. After a couple of days throw this used carbon away. . Rays are bottom dwellers and are very well evolved to cope with their parasites and a previously healthy ray is not likely to crash from a parasite without very good reason, that usually being bad water quality. Change water change water change water!
Dissolved organics of the good kind ( Vs excreta, the bad kind) are easy and cheap to replicate in your tank, especially if you are really interested in having a true biotope ‘look’ to your tank.
Simply fill a stocking with organic peat moss and place it in the water flow of your sump. This will release tannins into your water, having several effects. Your water will acquire a ‘tea’ color. The tannins also have natural antibiotic and antiseptic properties, keeping your tank healthier, it helps maintain or slightly lower pH from ion exchange, again helping reproduce an environment more closely mimicking the natural habitat and create a more natural situation for your ray. You will also usually notice your rays’ colors become more vibrant . A 20lb bag of organic peat moss will cost you less than$10 from your local garden store and will last months. Replace the stocking every week or so to maintain the effect.

Dissolved organics of the bad kind cannot easily be tested for and can only really be effectively removed by large frequent water changes.
Personally I recommend 50% or more at least 3 times per week , ideally a constant flow system is the best and easiest method of ensuring this. When in doubt change water change water change water.
If you do this you can greatly improve growth rates and general health while greatly reducing the risk of random water quality issues like bacteria ,fungus etc. If you have a problem then start by changing 50% of the tank water twice per day for a week. Often meds are not needed if your water is pristine. Use ‘aged’ water of course. The best philosophy for recreating Amazonian water conditions is to remove things from the water, not to add them. Remove minerals with R/O, remove Chlorine with aeration. The only water quality issue that requires any kind of chemical treatment is if you have chloramines. Chlorine will gas itself off for free in about 12 hours if you age your water. pH buffers are not designed to change your pH but simply to maintain it at a target level.

a rant about hybridization, wild Vs tank, too much bling and the health perils of importing from Asia is probably due☺

 
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Nic

Peacock Bass
MFK Member
Oct 8, 2005
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please tell me your are back for good.....

ill quote that and add my arguments and agreements later.... you wrote a rant too long for me to get in on right now... major mess to clean up....
 

dodgers86

Candiru
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Aug 4, 2005
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I for a second thought this was a old ass thread and the date was a typo. Now back on topic, The temp thing I totally agree except for the temps down in the 72 degree range that is way to low for my liking day or night.
 

jmart.cooper

Feeder Fish
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Dec 21, 2007
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A long way from Amphioxus
Well I thought that was interesting. I agree with your issues about medication. It seems like most people over medicate when all that is really necessary is cleaner water. I like the two heater idea. I might try that.
 

DB junkie

Gold Tier VIP
MFK Member
Jan 27, 2007
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I think a lot of us here get kinda lost when rays get sick.... We panic. Just like when a loved one goes to the hospital. Some of us haven't been doing this for years, but are rather fairly new to this. IF I have someone that has been keeping rays for years tell me they used a certain med to clear up similar symptoms who am I (as a newb) to question it? Why not take the advise and try to get your rays better?

Maybe some of us jumped in too much to fast..... But there is only so much you can read about. Some things can't be taught but must rather be experienced. Mistakes can be learned from. I think we all know what we eventually want in the long run, but money doesn't grow on trees for a lot of us, so we do what we can to get by.

I know when I ask for help here and someone is kind enough to lend thier more experienced advice I listen.

You brought up some very good points about a lot of things.
 
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uncwnells

Feeder Fish
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Aug 18, 2008
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this guy makes sense, take the time to read the article and then use your common sense. Sont just write him off because you think hes taking a shot at you, I ma sure that he is only trying to make a suggestion that will help us in the long run. Yeah I read about the entire thing.
 

DavidW

INCOMING!!!
MFK Member
Apr 5, 2005
812
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0
Manaus, Brasil
DB junkie;2869569; said:
Some things can't be taught but must rather be experienced. Mistakes can be learned from.
so true, I have probably killed more rays than anyone else here :( my heartfelt thanks to those rays that gave their lives for my learning curve

Dodger, regarding river temperatures, just google 'water temp for xingu' or 'tapajos ' or Colombia or whatever and after a lot of digging you can find the water temp ranges, and the readings given are usually for surface temperatures not bottom temperatures, they are all similar. I think some people confuse air temperatures with water temperatures, believe me, having swam in the Amazon, it is frequently cooler that you might expect ( I could explain why) , although never too uncomfortable :)
:)
 
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