I was arguing with this guy today..........

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Are we talking about what could happen or should happen because of "common sense", or what does happen?

I have posted numerous videos and pics of breeding pairs of fish, many of which are mouth brooders. I have never experienced slower growth in breeding females. This is in comparison to other fish from the same group. If anything, pairs that start breeding early remain bigger than their siblings, perhaps because they are dominant fish early.

Please post evidence of breeding females growing slower than their sisters.

Please.

Evidence.
 
I have NO idea, pete.
LOL. ask the brainiacs.

my pair that has spawned every 2 weeks since forever, and eaten all their offspring- are outgrowing their tankmates/siblings, by leaps & bounds. so I'm real sure that eggs are nutritious.
 
I have NO idea, pete.
LOL. ask the brainiacs.

my pair that has spawned every 2 weeks since forever, and eaten all their offspring- are outgrowing their tankmates/siblings, by leaps & bounds. so I'm real sure that eggs are nutritious.

That's just it, isn't it?

I've had this situation numerous times - a group of individuals growing up together in the same tank, and a pair (usually the biggest male and the biggest female) pair up early and spawn early. They remain the LARGEST pair. It has never happened to me that they would be outgrown and fall behind. Never. And we are taking about close to a dozen species.

I think people who have grown out groups to get breeding pairs would know what I mean.

Looking forward to evidence showing the contrary - spawning females growing slower than siblings.
 
That's just it, isn't it?

I've had this situation numerous times - a group of individuals growing up together in the same tank, and a pair (usually the biggest male and the biggest female) pair up early and spawn early. They remain the LARGEST pair. It has never happened to me that they would be outgrown and fall behind. Never. And we are taking about close to a dozen species.

I think people who have grown out groups to get breeding pairs would know what I mean.

Looking forward to evidence showing the contrary - spawning females growing slower than siblings.
but pete, I think you missed the fact that I was whining. my pair hasn't raised any fry, and since the female guards the eggs so well, I think that they are eating their own eggs.
 
Pete - I can only speak from my own personal experience, in breeding a few odd species of cichlids, over a few odd years.

Please note the word "can" in my previous comment - early & continual breeding at an early age can cause slower overall growth in females, compared to females that are not continually spawning.

In a community setting there can be numerous factors at play as to why a fish does, or does not exceed the growth rate of their siblings. Dominant fish are usually dominant for a reason, and in at least some cases, with some species of cichlids, social status within the group can play a large role as to why certain fish remain smaller than the dominant fish.
As an example, with cichlid species such as Neolamprologus pulcher subordinates will make growth adjustments to ensure their place within the community. They remain smaller than the dominant fish as a means of long term survival within the group.

Elevation of plasma cortisol in subordinates is generally a chronic increase of basal cortisol levels, which can be costly, as it may lead to changes in metabolism and has implications for immune system function, growth and reproduction (Pickering & Pottinger,
1995; Abbott et al., 2003).

Take those same two "dominant" breeders, and place them into a setting where they are now in a subdominant role within the tank hierarchy, and you could experience completely different results in overall growth rates.

What you have experienced in group settings, certainly doesn't disprove the fact that egg production requires energy, and/or that defending those eggs/fry also requires energy that beyond normal metabolic functions would typically go towards growth. Hence, slower overall growth.

Nothing is cut & dry when it comes to cichlids, certainly not growth and all the numerous variables that can play a role in the growth of a cichlid, female, or male.
 
Good point Neil. I had overlooked the dominance factor. There have been a few cases where I moved young pairs out of the group. Most recently, I moved a young orange head pair into a 93g cube and left the rest in a 90g. It was about 2-3months ago. The pair are now slightly bigger than the rest of the group, but because they are not in the same tank, I cannot rule out the fact that the pair are living a better life in the 93g. They probably are, actually.

Your argument actually has an interesting inference - if a dominant pair start breeding early, they will "stunt" the whole group.

I don't dispute the fact that breeding requires a lot of energy and sacrifice. I'm just not sure if it would have a major effect. To be blunt, it sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation for something that may or may not happen.

In any event, I think it's abundantly clear that females don't stop growing when they first spawn.
 
In any event, I think it's abundantly clear that females don't stop growing when they first spawn.

Agreed, no argument there. :)
 
Alright, well there's a concept in biology called metabolic tradeoff, which applies to pretty much everything. Essentially, with all things being equal - exact same genetics, exact same diet, exact same environment, then what's left is the distribution of energy and molecules generated through metabolism. If you think about it, the reason why a woman generally craves food when she's pregnant is because a lot of what she's eating is being used for the baby, hence she craves nourishment. If she doesn't get the nourishment necessary, she'll have to start using up her reserves. The same is for female cichlids - if all things being equal, then one that starts spawning from an early age will have to use what she metabolizes for egg production, whilst one that doesn't spawn can use it for other things - i.e. growing. Yes, it's simple common sense, and no, I may never have done the experiments myself, but it's a basic biological concept and really there's no point testing it out in every species of animal possible when there's already enough tests out there to validate it. :/ But yes, you can't generate something out of nothing. This may be surprising to some people, but yes the mother cichlid does have to use up her energy/fat/protein/etc. reserves to generate eggs, they don't just suddenly appear in her belly.

And yes, the earliest breeding pair in a large group of fish can be much larger than the rest due to dominance - but then everything's not equal. They're getting a lot more sustenance than the others.

If you have two tanks with the exact same everything, and each has a pair that's basically identical to each other, and assuming one pair breeds continuously whilst the other doesn't, then the female of the breeding pair WILL grow slower, because she will have had to use part of what she metabolized for egg development and fry care and all that. The only time that she can focus her energy solely on growing is between spawns, assuming that at that time she does not care at all about breeding, which does often happen. But in cases where the fish really do spawn continuously - i.e. continuously focusing energy on producing eggs/laying/taking care of fries/etc. etc. then the growth will slow down.

Granted, it's not like there's no growth, but if it's continuous, it's gonna seem like it's completely stunted, which was what I was saying as a reply to why OP's 'friend' stated he saw no more growth.
 
Alright, well there's a concept in biology called metabolic tradeoff, which applies to pretty much everything. Essentially, with all things being equal - exact same genetics, exact same diet, exact same environment, then what's left is the distribution of energy and molecules generated through metabolism. If you think about it, the reason why a woman generally craves food when she's pregnant is because a lot of what she's eating is being used for the baby, hence she craves nourishment. If she doesn't get the nourishment necessary, she'll have to start using up her reserves. The same is for female cichlids - if all things being equal, then one that starts spawning from an early age will have to use what she metabolizes for egg production, whilst one that doesn't spawn can use it for other things - i.e. growing. Yes, it's simple common sense, and no, I may never have done the experiments myself, but it's a basic biological concept and really there's no point testing it out in every species of animal possible when there's already enough tests out there to validate it. :/ But yes, you can't generate something out of nothing. This may be surprising to some people, but yes the mother cichlid does have to use up her energy/fat/protein/etc. reserves to generate eggs, they don't just suddenly appear in her belly.

And yes, the earliest breeding pair in a large group of fish can be much larger than the rest due to dominance - but then everything's not equal. They're getting a lot more sustenance than the others.

If you have two tanks with the exact same everything, and each has a pair that's basically identical to each other, and assuming one pair breeds continuously whilst the other doesn't, then the female of the breeding pair WILL grow slower, because she will have had to use part of what she metabolized for egg development and fry care and all that. The only time that she can focus her energy solely on growing is between spawns, assuming that at that time she does not care at all about breeding, which does often happen. But in cases where the fish really do spawn continuously - i.e. continuously focusing energy on producing eggs/laying/taking care of fries/etc. etc. then the growth will slow down.

Granted, it's not like there's no growth, but if it's continuous, it's gonna seem like it's completely stunted, which was what I was saying as a reply to why OP's 'friend' stated he saw no more growth.


I don't want to be rude, but I swear I don't need you to tell me everything you know about gravity and that all th galaxies would eventually collide wih each other because of the gravitational pulls among them while the reality is the exact opposite - they are moving away from each other faster and faster.

Why you are wrong may be an interesting question for another day, bu it has nothing to do with the fact that you are wrong. Why are you explaining something that simply does not happen?

What evidence do you have that for "all cichlids", females that spawn early are stunted? What evidence?

I have orange head pairs spawning at 7 month old when they were 3.5". They are now 1.5 years old at 6-7". Why don't you show me some 1.5 year old orange heads that are not "stunted"? Doesn't have to be yours. Just find me some 1.5 year old orange heads that a lot bigger.

Do I believe my own eyes or your imagination?
 
I don't want to be rude, but I swear I don't need you to tell me everything you know about gravity and that all th galaxies would eventually collide wih each other because of the gravitational pulls among them while the reality is the exact opposite - they are moving away from each other faster and faster.

Why you are wrong may be an interesting question for another day, bu it has nothing to do with the fact that you are wrong. Why are you explaining something that simply does not happen?

What evidence do you have that for "all cichlids", females that spawn early are stunted? What evidence?

I have orange head pairs spawning at 7 month old when they were 3.5". They are now 1.5 years old at 6-7". Why don't you show me some 1.5 year old orange heads that are not "stunted"? Doesn't have to be yours. Just find me some 1.5 year old orange heads that a lot bigger.

Do I believe my own eyes or your imagination?

Alright well, I don't want to be rude either, so I'ma just ask this - did you actually read my post?
 
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