Cichla Sao Francisco

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Thanks for your input as well. you have very nice collection of fish and a lot of experience with peacock bass. Pure bred and wild caught are two different things. Pure bred can be a pure bred of man made strain, like a pure bred french bulldog., which does not exist in the wild. Its bred through thousands of years of selective breeding, in breeding to obtain.

Wild caught, also have different meanings. Wild caught fish are also known to hybridze as well. For all we know, that could be how some new species are developed. Previously thought hybrids were not viable, but rays have proved that "scientific theory" wrong. many of the larger guapote cichlids, cichlasoma from central america randomly hybridize. To the splitter scientists, each time they find a few looking one they'd call it a new specie. Maybe our definition of specie is not accurate, many fish are closer related than they are seperated?

Technically, F1, off springs of wild fish F0, are still wild fish right? Only difference is that they were born in captivity, but the parents are wild selected mates that grew up in the wild. Or how about transplanted fish? like peacock bass in Florida, or how about Hawaii? Generations of them, have bred and lived in the "wild"...

Or how about Azuls bred in ponds near the river in Brazil, are they wild or captive bred? People just catch the fish, throw them in pens by the river and raise the fry.

I've personally seen the so called duck billed bahia's parents, which the parents don't have duck bills and have amazing red and gold, which is not found in any other kelberi pairs! Maybe the F1, and F2, due to diet, and water, become duck billed. Realize how we are raising fish on artificial foods, fast growth rate. Possibly some fish in the wild take a few years to reach sexual maturity due to limitations of food and seasons. Where in a fish tank, they get 2-3 meals of nutritionally packed pellets daily. also in the wild they hunt for food, here food drops on their heads. Many factors., just like Kendragon said, many factors influence how a fish's final out come.

So what is it that we desire? A rare color morph? a rare wild variety? If I found a black peaock bass in the wild I bet people would go gaga over it as well. Now that we have bahia, too much gold, we want more black on it. Like black rays, we don't want black, then black is not black enough, then we want more white, then white is not white enough. Eventually we'll end up with a pure white ray with just a few black blotches, wouldn't that be cool? and a jet black peacock bass with red occeli, and red eyes, oh YEAH!

Look up cichla in Singapore and look up cichla vendors from Singapore. If you know anything about cichla, then you will know most of the cichla from there are wild caught from there rivers. A mass mix of this and that bass, but calling them a pure bred??? Is bs to me. But not some seasoned cichla keepers.

You can keep your second hand bass bs. Captive bred better then wild. It's obvious you haven't kept wild bass before.

Prime example: bahias.
The wild ones out of Taiwan looks nothing like there offspring's with their duck billed faces.

As for me saying that a country miss labels there bass, I get countless email, pm from Singapore asking me/us to ID there bass. I'm not bounded just to mfk, I'm also a active member to other forums to.



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Look up cichla in Singapore and look up cichla vendors from Singapore. If you know anything about cichla, then you will know most of the cichla from there are wild caught from there rivers. A mass mix of this and that bass, but calling them a pure bred??? Is bs to me. But not some seasoned cichla keepers.

You can keep your second hand bass bs. Captive bred better then wild. It's obvious you haven't kept wild bass before.

Prime example: bahias.
The wild ones out of Taiwan looks nothing like there offspring's with their duck billed faces.

As for me saying that a country miss labels there bass, I get countless email, pm from Singapore asking me/us to ID there bass. I'm not bounded just to mfk, I'm also a active member to other forums to.



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Wow, do share which vendors are these, I will personally go and check, take photos ask the right questions and present them here. Rather then the 2 of us being keyboard warriors, give me your leads, l will do the physical work. A trip down to the LFS is nv a boring prospect.

Once again, fishing in our reservoirs is mostly illegal. No private boats are allowed in the water. How the hell did these guys get their supply? There is no place for them to hide. As an avid angler, I know the schedule of our reservoir rangers. You mostly have a 2 hr window to fish before u get caught. And thats from the forest, think about if you are in open water. If you didn't know, our country is most infamous for its law and order. If you think our reservoirs are huge btw, some are only the size of 2 football fields, we have only 6 reservoirs in the whole country and I can get to any of them by car in under an hr. We do have LFS selling these angler caught fishes, but they are mostly adult sizes and in small numbers. NONE FOR EXPORT! they go for like $10 to $30SGD if you got idiot LFS owner, $100 bucks. But no one with a decent knowledge of pbass would buy them. How does that affect other countries p bass supply? How does that affect you?

WC p bass may look better, I agree since I have mostly WC fish in my tank, but as Wes mentioned the supply is being cut, export is mostly banned. Now the question is no p bass at all or CB p bass, which would u choose? We are doing our part by breeding PURE p bass too. Why do you only choose to look at the bad?
http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=481331&page=3 follow this thread to see the parents of pure cb p bass.

Abt the Bahias..... As said I admit abt this. The problem is some collectors in SG are so desperate to obtain WC kels that they would choose to believe anything. Some started promoting this to others in the forums, being a small country, everyone started believing them. When evidence started to show that these with not WC bahias, the original promote still firmly stood his ground, he being a respected person in the forum, benifit of the doubt was given. Then suddenly these CB bahias started popping out all the famous LFS and the owners were honest abt them being CB. The original promoted laid low for a while and the offending LFS change his bahia to CB saying only the last batch was WC. That was one of the stories from my point of view, do you wanna know why they believed them to be WC?
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The original promoter has delete all his threads regarding this but these juvi Kels were amazing when they were at the LFS. Many of us were conned. But this happens everywhere doesn't it?

We have also another 2 really reputable LFS which once in a while promotes their big Bahias as WC. But these are inports from Tawian, I'm sure they are taking their supplier's word for it rather then trying to cheat the pulbic.

Those last lines are just a flat argument. There are countless of ppl all around the world asking for ID on their PBs. If that was a bench mark as to how many mis ID pb a country has, then thats just ridiculous. Everyday ppl are asking for ID on pbass in any forum that has a pbass thread. And you being NOT from Singapore, makes you a 2nd opinion to us locals. If you share you have some knowledge on pbass, Singaporeans will be curious to what your opinion is, some will believe that you are more knowledgeable then the locals since you are not from here, thats why they ask. That doesn't mean that most of our pbass are mis ID. Are you also saying that this doesn't happen in the US or Europe? I got ppl from other countries asking me abt poly IDs all the time, does that mean those guys got the most mis ID bichirs? :bs:

Work with me dude to show some evidence rather then just saying this and that. Bashing an entire country's reputation requires some solid proof rather then just heysay. If I did that to the US the whole forum will be up my behind by now.
 
Thanks for your input as well. you have very nice collection of fish and a lot of experience with peacock bass. Pure bred and wild caught are two different things. Pure bred can be a pure bred of man made strain, like a pure bred french bulldog., which does not exist in the wild. Its bred through thousands of years of selective breeding, in breeding to obtain.

Wild caught, also have different meanings. Wild caught fish are also known to hybridze as well. For all we know, that could be how some new species are developed. Previously thought hybrids were not viable, but rays have proved that "scientific theory" wrong. many of the larger guapote cichlids, cichlasoma from central america randomly hybridize. To the splitter scientists, each time they find a few looking one they'd call it a new specie. Maybe our definition of specie is not accurate, many fish are closer related than they are seperated?

Technically, F1, off springs of wild fish F0, are still wild fish right? Only difference is that they were born in captivity, but the parents are wild selected mates that grew up in the wild. Or how about transplanted fish? like peacock bass in Florida, or how about Hawaii? Generations of them, have bred and lived in the "wild"...

Or how about Azuls bred in ponds near the river in Brazil, are they wild or captive bred? People just catch the fish, throw them in pens by the river and raise the fry.

I've personally seen the so called duck billed bahia's parents, which the parents don't have duck bills and have amazing red and gold, which is not found in any other kelberi pairs! Maybe the F1, and F2, due to diet, and water, become duck billed. Realize how we are raising fish on artificial foods, fast growth rate. Possibly some fish in the wild take a few years to reach sexual maturity due to limitations of food and seasons. Where in a fish tank, they get 2-3 meals of nutritionally packed pellets daily. also in the wild they hunt for food, here food drops on their heads. Many factors., just like Kendragon said, many factors influence how a fish's final out come.

So what is it that we desire? A rare color morph? a rare wild variety? If I found a black peaock bass in the wild I bet people would go gaga over it as well. Now that we have bahia, too much gold, we want more black on it. Like black rays, we don't want black, then black is not black enough, then we want more white, then white is not white enough. Eventually we'll end up with a pure white ray with just a few black blotches, wouldn't that be cool? and a jet black peacock bass with red occeli, and red eyes, oh YEAH!

It is true that hybrids esp those that occur naturally in the wild can turn out amazing. I have been tempted to keep a couple of my catches in the past but I'm strictly Catch & release only when it comes to freshwater fishing. While I wouldn't sell any fish from my reservoirs as wild fish, they have been around since the early 90s. Thats 20yrs from breeding. Brokopondos sp are also from a man made reservoir. It only took 60yrs to have a unique sp. Maybe we will see a unique stable sp from my reservoirs 50yrs down the rd. Some pics of my past catches. For you to judge if they look to have potential or not.
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Those above were from a reservoir called bedok reservoir so I guess they are bedok sp. These are actually unique to there. And Its just a huge pond about 4 football fields big. Orino x occel?
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These are from other places, mono x occel?

Just to be clear I dun condone or promote the keeping or selling of these fishes. Just wanted to share what a natural morph would look like. I think it is interesting to say the least.
 
Very informative thread. Once again, the main concern for me here is getting cb fish labeled As wc fish. The price of a wc fish generally out weighs the cost of a cb fish by a big margin. I'm not against cb bred fish at all. Look at rays some of the rays look stunning once they hit f4, f5 etc. so once again....it's the overpaying and being lied to about "false" wc fish that are really cb that upsets many.




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Very informative thread. Once again, the main concern for me here is getting cb fish labeled As wc fish. The price of a wc fish generally out weighs the cost of a cb fish by a big margin. I'm not against cb bred fish at all. Look at rays some of the rays look stunning once they hit f4, f5 etc. so once again....it's the overpaying and being lied to about "false" wc fish that are really cb that upsets many.




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good point about the CB verses WC thing is if people want Quality CB they are going to have to pay nearly as much as wild caught Just like with Rays !!!!!! The amount of money spent housing Quality fish getting them to spawn and the $$$$ feeding the fry Demands this not to mention the time spent witch you will never recover Kind of like guys that are into Hot rods you can get your $$$ back for parts never the time !!!! And if other Hobbiest are not willing to pay the price for the fry then why would someone take the time to spawn these fish ?????? Not quite worth it if Hobbiest do not support each other get the drift guys ??????For the life of me i don't understand some of this fussing here just tearing the Hobby down instead of supporting!!!
 
Very informative thread. Once again, the main concern for me here is getting cb fish labeled As wc fish. The price of a wc fish generally out weighs the cost of a cb fish by a big margin. I'm not against cb bred fish at all. Look at rays some of the rays look stunning once they hit f4, f5 etc. so once again....it's the overpaying and being lied to about "false" wc fish that are really cb that upsets many.




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Yes, totally agree that the feeling of paying for a wc fish but getting a cb fish is a real bummer. But how are hobbyist suppose to tell? It's hard to judge. I say just buy what u like and forget abt the label. The only ppl who truly know are the ppl who export them. Even ur importers are just trusting the exporters.

good point about the CB verses WC thing is if people want Quality CB they are going to have to pay nearly as much as wild caught Just like with Rays !!!!!! The amount of money spent housing Quality fish getting them to spawn and the $$$$ feeding the fry Demands this not to mention the time spent witch you will never recover Kind of like guys that are into Hot rods you can get your $$$ back for parts never the time !!!! And if other Hobbiest are not willing to pay the price for the fry then why would someone take the time to spawn these fish ?????? Not quite worth it if Hobbiest do not support each other get the drift guys ??????For the life of me i don't understand some of this fussing here just tearing the Hobby down instead of supporting!!!

True, true. The only problem I have with CB fish is that it's killing the resale market for WC fishes haha. I wanted to shift my WC Azul but CB azul frys are sold at $28SGD in the LFS over here.:WHOA: Now I'm gonna keep him/her for life because it doesn't make sense to sell at all. I dread to think how am I gonna cope when they all hit 20".
 
Yes, totally agree that the feeling of paying for a wc fish but getting a cb fish is a real bummer. But how are hobbyist suppose to tell? It's hard to judge. I say just buy what u like and forget abt the label. The only ppl who truly know are the ppl who export them. Even ur importers are just trusting the exporters.



True, true. The only problem I have with CB fish is that it's killing the resale market for WC fishes haha. I wanted to shift my WC Azul but CB azul frys are sold at $28SGD in the LFS over here.:WHOA: Now I'm gonna keep him/her for life because it doesn't make sense to sell at all. I dread to think how am I gonna cope when they all hit 20".
MY point exactly these sellers should not be damaging the market selling at a low price low price leads to garbage quality i can see what is going to happen here already very few will pay for quality already complaining about price the people that can produce the quality won't for the simple fact they will not be payed for their labor there will not be imports like in the past and when the dust clears there will be a bunch of junk and the very few will be left with the quality !!!!! They will hide them breed them in very small numbers will not dilute the market because they are forced to by just thing that is happening right now !!!! This really is distastfull:irked::irked::irked:OP sorry for the derail !!!
 
MY point exactly these sellers should not be damaging the market selling at a low price low price leads to garbage quality i can see what is going to happen here already very few will pay for quality already complaining about price the people that can produce the quality won't for the simple fact they will not be payed for their labor there will not be imports like in the past and when the dust clears there will be a bunch of junk and the very few will be left with the quality !!!!! They will hide them breed them in very small numbers will not dilute the market because they are forced to by just thing that is happening right now !!!! This really is distastfull:irked::irked::irked:OP sorry for the derail !!!

Well, as long as there are true pb lovers, there will be a demand, be it a smaller market or not. I will still pay 3 to 4 times the price for a quality Kel. Even over paying for unknowns, the excitement of owning something no one else has is part of the beauty of pbs, we nv know how well they turn out. I do hate it when LFS uses fancy names to sell fish for higher prices through. But the gd news is that other then Bahia Kels, all the frys are still F1. The quality hasn't down yet. So it's gd news for pb lovers who can't afford to pay the old prices I used to pay.
 
you know guys, i think the point here is are these sao francisco really what the seller says it is? or is it just a plot to sell some captive bred fish and pass them on as sao franciscos by a very good businessman to make a big profit? i am sorry to mfk people but you have a fish that is labelled captive bred kelberi x piquiti. as you can all remember or search in the normal threads, i posted a new thread bout some kelquiti hybrids that will soon come out. was actually trying to stop this thing to happen. there were talks that an american supplier would get some kelquitis and pass them up as wild caught specimens. my supplier declined to do this because first it was unethical and second, this really wont promote business. who would like to get mininformed fish? well my supplier and i had our suspicions already. sure enough i see the kelquitis in mfk... but with a different name. a name that was just like my sao franciscos! my sao fran is 9 inches now and if you can check they are not exactly the same.head shape and overall markings. say what you want but i trust my supplier and if he says they come from south america with the pinimas that we got. i would go for his word against yours. and if ever worst case scenario mine are not real sao frans.. hell i am not selling my fish and making 4 times the price passing them up as sao franciscos!!! you created that name for your asian captive bred hybrids! this has gone far enough and your splendid (long)explanations cant cover up the truth, you do not have sole access to suppliers sir. mfk people are not sardines like you say they are. we are people earning and saving and spending on fish that we love so we expect nothing but the truth from our suppliers. alot of people will diss me. call me a liar or what not. hell i might get banned for this. but im standing up to the little people out there who demand to be respected! not lied to and manipulated by a great guy who is slowly creeping to the dark side. mr. fugupuff. honestly bro you are very well respected here. you should show your respect as well. these are the captive bred kelquitis that arrived here. retail and with conversions and market value here. it wont cost as much as what was sold there. i would say some stuff about the other cichla as well. but it wont matter anymore. either you guys believe me, a chinese-filipino guy who cant sleep and pay his bills coz he C.R.E.A.M.S himself off day and night or a very well respected supplier over the years. probably one of the best businessmen here in mfk.i know im the underdog. but i tell you this. even if you guys dont believe me. i did this coz i want all of us to be respected. here are the kel quitis.. look familiar?
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