were you over charged for them? calling me dishonest., you want me to sell them to you at a loss of money?
Cichla Sao Francisco
- Thread starter DammitKhoa
- Start date
I think you still a great vendor Wes. People should know that if you have two type of pbass that is breed together, it's rarely be wc. It don't happen in the wild, unless u keep them in a close environments. You don't see a large mouth bass breed with a small mouth in our lake or river. Why those it matter if it wc or cb, if you dont like it, then dont buy it and dont bash the vendor cause it not wc. if u want wc then take yourself down there and fish for it. People need to use common sense.
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Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
Hi guys, pls chill it. Not for anyone, but jus for the love of PBS.
Whether cb or wc, in Singapore, it had always being a much debated topic.
My humble view, be it either, buy the fish for the love n potential, but not for the label.
It's a chic n egg thingy. If hobbyist likes such terms, sellers may be tempted to do so.
Do not mistaken me of saying fugupuff is doing so, I'm jus stating human tendency.
In SG, sad fact is a couple shops really does resort to that.
That being said, I'm referring to jus a minority.
The hobby n trade had grown a lot with technology. As such, sellers r also being watchful of what they commit on the stocks, n less such false labels r in.
Back track a little, bro Nid had shared some very very true info on the SG pb scene n breeding.
The few breeders I came across, r all reputable players n only accepts purity. But of cos, in evey trade n line, there's bound to b a few black sheep. But that doesn't warrant one to name e whole herd black.
Whether one believes my share of info or not, i can't force. Everyone has their own view n experience.
Bro Darboy might hv his side of the story to his statement, he might be right as well in his context. Every fish has 2 sides, even my Orino might hv 3 spots on 1, n 2 spots e other.
Hope I managed to put some ice onto the heated topic.
So buy only if u r comfortable. In any case doubtful, hang on to the cash.
Whether cb or wc, in Singapore, it had always being a much debated topic.
My humble view, be it either, buy the fish for the love n potential, but not for the label.
It's a chic n egg thingy. If hobbyist likes such terms, sellers may be tempted to do so.
Do not mistaken me of saying fugupuff is doing so, I'm jus stating human tendency.
In SG, sad fact is a couple shops really does resort to that.
That being said, I'm referring to jus a minority.
The hobby n trade had grown a lot with technology. As such, sellers r also being watchful of what they commit on the stocks, n less such false labels r in.
Back track a little, bro Nid had shared some very very true info on the SG pb scene n breeding.
The few breeders I came across, r all reputable players n only accepts purity. But of cos, in evey trade n line, there's bound to b a few black sheep. But that doesn't warrant one to name e whole herd black.
Whether one believes my share of info or not, i can't force. Everyone has their own view n experience.
Bro Darboy might hv his side of the story to his statement, he might be right as well in his context. Every fish has 2 sides, even my Orino might hv 3 spots on 1, n 2 spots e other.
Hope I managed to put some ice onto the heated topic.
So buy only if u r comfortable. In any case doubtful, hang on to the cash.
I think we should all take a chill pill and recap what are the facts and theories rather then fill this thread with treats and name callings.
So what do we know so far?
1. Wes's "sao francisco" are in fact highly possible not wild caught. Most have a beef with this point. Well, he nv said they were, he just didn't label them as captive bred. Reason? He didn't know for sure if they were or not.
For me personally, he wasn't in the wrong. Since he nv labeled it as wc, it's not really his fault. We have to take the blame for assuming too much. Case and example, Bahia as we all know are now CB. But the name bahia is a collection point just like sao francisco. I dun think all traders add a CB to the Bahias they sell, but if u asked, they would tell u if it was or not. The fact that he came out on his own that he wasn't sure if they were wc before it all blew up means he wasn't trying to hide anything. To be honest, most vendors would add the wc to the name of the fish they were selling if they knew for sure. This will boost sales even more, but he didn't. This part of the argument should be dropped.
2. Wes's " sao francisco" are in fact only named that because of darboy's PB. He admitted as much and have no idea nor evidence if it came from there.
This IMO is the real sore point. As a person who talks alot with my vendors for info, it's disappointing to see this is how they go about doing things. But, he has admitted it, and we should all know that fancy names are given to ALL fishes. Kels used to be called super monos. So who gave it the name Kelberi? Or at least who marketed it to everyone? And super monos? If that isn't a cheesy name I dunno what is. In my country I have seen, "mono galaxy", "super spotted", "Orino blue fin variant", "spider bahia gold" and the most common used by hobbist to push prices, "peru mono" on farmies or monos x ocell. Do I think it's wrong? Yes. Is it common? Yes. It's marketing, it happens in our everyday lives all the time. We can't condemn a person as dishonest or treat him like the scrum of the earth just because he is using a common business tactic. We dun have to like it, but we shouldn't over react to it either.
3. Wes's have brought in rare fishes before and ppl who wanted Kel x Azuls now have a source.
With CB Bahias with defects going at $60, what is wrong with paying more for a new hybrid that is hitting the US for the first time. He has nv hid the fact that they were suspected hybrids. If I sent Kelrinos ur way, I'm sure there is a market for it too. Of cos with shipping and DOAs by the time it reaches the US the price would have gone up a bit. Nothing wrong with that I think. They are businessman, u wouldn't run ur company on a loss would u. I dun think he is being dishonest with his pricing and the fact is, he is the seller and can set any price he wants. It's up to u to buy it in the end.
Conclusion. Is Wes the wicked conman some label him to be?
From what I have read so far, imo, no, he is just a businessman. The fact is, he didn't do enough to deserve the reputation bashing he got. Azuls that he sold as wild could be wilds, we won't know for sure unless we go catch them ourselves, with this new info that Brazil breeds them in pens, now it seems highly likely that none of the recent imports from any of the vendors are truly wc. What is to stop those exporters from labeling these fishes as wc, how can our vendors ever know for sure. If we are paying more, take into consideration shipping charges and DOA. $28 Azuls over here once shipped to the US might become $128 Azuls. It cheap for us cos it's farm to LFS by car. Now if the market is only willing to pay $28 for a CB Azul, which vendor is gonna bring them in? I rather pay more and have a chance to own rather then only to look at others have them.
Good vendors who refund ur money, replace ur fish, share knowledge, and does his best to bring in new or rare fish shouldn't be treated this way over this. My own regular and Fav LFS has sold Azuls to me that turn out to be pinmas, we did a exchange once he had new stock in. Sold me a Dabola that was suppose to be a Guinean lap(it wasn't cheap too) but bought it back from me cost to cost. Recently sold me Rio Cana brava sp claiming it was likely to be kel but was ID as a Mono by chizzle. (it wasn't mono price by a long shot) The moment I told him abt my concerns, he offered to buy it back. But I decided to keep them because I liked it no matter what they turn out to be. This guy will always be my main man and I will always have his back. He has given me way more then the few mistake here and there, I have a tank that some would envy and that's due to him. Why would you cut urself of from a good vendor like that because of a fancy name? Well, darboy has nothing to lose but what abt the rest who orders from him? Buy what u like with confidence, if u like the fish, does it really matter anymore? "See fish, dun see cert" Thats a saying in my country.
I'm not trying to take sides but as a neutral bystander who is reading this with an open mind, this seems more logical then the hate that is going around. Like haynchinook334 bashing on my country with heresay thousands of miles away, u guys are freaking over something that no one knows for dead sure or jumping to conclusions. I may not know the international trade well, but I know that without vendors to bring in rare fish, we won't have anything at all.
To darboy, I may not know the international trade well, but I do know ur importer didn't catch those fish himself. That means there is no way to prove that urs were WC either. We go by trust, trust to our vendors and importers, but we dun have to disregard every possibility just because we trust them. U ur self said it's the most u spend on a single pb, IF it turns out to be the same fish, will u call ur importer dishonest? Trying to make a quick buck by cheating u? I dun think so, we all know it's not his fault if it was mislabeled by the exporter. peace man.
So what do we know so far?
1. Wes's "sao francisco" are in fact highly possible not wild caught. Most have a beef with this point. Well, he nv said they were, he just didn't label them as captive bred. Reason? He didn't know for sure if they were or not.
For me personally, he wasn't in the wrong. Since he nv labeled it as wc, it's not really his fault. We have to take the blame for assuming too much. Case and example, Bahia as we all know are now CB. But the name bahia is a collection point just like sao francisco. I dun think all traders add a CB to the Bahias they sell, but if u asked, they would tell u if it was or not. The fact that he came out on his own that he wasn't sure if they were wc before it all blew up means he wasn't trying to hide anything. To be honest, most vendors would add the wc to the name of the fish they were selling if they knew for sure. This will boost sales even more, but he didn't. This part of the argument should be dropped.
2. Wes's " sao francisco" are in fact only named that because of darboy's PB. He admitted as much and have no idea nor evidence if it came from there.
This IMO is the real sore point. As a person who talks alot with my vendors for info, it's disappointing to see this is how they go about doing things. But, he has admitted it, and we should all know that fancy names are given to ALL fishes. Kels used to be called super monos. So who gave it the name Kelberi? Or at least who marketed it to everyone? And super monos? If that isn't a cheesy name I dunno what is. In my country I have seen, "mono galaxy", "super spotted", "Orino blue fin variant", "spider bahia gold" and the most common used by hobbist to push prices, "peru mono" on farmies or monos x ocell. Do I think it's wrong? Yes. Is it common? Yes. It's marketing, it happens in our everyday lives all the time. We can't condemn a person as dishonest or treat him like the scrum of the earth just because he is using a common business tactic. We dun have to like it, but we shouldn't over react to it either.
3. Wes's have brought in rare fishes before and ppl who wanted Kel x Azuls now have a source.
With CB Bahias with defects going at $60, what is wrong with paying more for a new hybrid that is hitting the US for the first time. He has nv hid the fact that they were suspected hybrids. If I sent Kelrinos ur way, I'm sure there is a market for it too. Of cos with shipping and DOAs by the time it reaches the US the price would have gone up a bit. Nothing wrong with that I think. They are businessman, u wouldn't run ur company on a loss would u. I dun think he is being dishonest with his pricing and the fact is, he is the seller and can set any price he wants. It's up to u to buy it in the end.
Conclusion. Is Wes the wicked conman some label him to be?
From what I have read so far, imo, no, he is just a businessman. The fact is, he didn't do enough to deserve the reputation bashing he got. Azuls that he sold as wild could be wilds, we won't know for sure unless we go catch them ourselves, with this new info that Brazil breeds them in pens, now it seems highly likely that none of the recent imports from any of the vendors are truly wc. What is to stop those exporters from labeling these fishes as wc, how can our vendors ever know for sure. If we are paying more, take into consideration shipping charges and DOA. $28 Azuls over here once shipped to the US might become $128 Azuls. It cheap for us cos it's farm to LFS by car. Now if the market is only willing to pay $28 for a CB Azul, which vendor is gonna bring them in? I rather pay more and have a chance to own rather then only to look at others have them.
Good vendors who refund ur money, replace ur fish, share knowledge, and does his best to bring in new or rare fish shouldn't be treated this way over this. My own regular and Fav LFS has sold Azuls to me that turn out to be pinmas, we did a exchange once he had new stock in. Sold me a Dabola that was suppose to be a Guinean lap(it wasn't cheap too) but bought it back from me cost to cost. Recently sold me Rio Cana brava sp claiming it was likely to be kel but was ID as a Mono by chizzle. (it wasn't mono price by a long shot) The moment I told him abt my concerns, he offered to buy it back. But I decided to keep them because I liked it no matter what they turn out to be. This guy will always be my main man and I will always have his back. He has given me way more then the few mistake here and there, I have a tank that some would envy and that's due to him. Why would you cut urself of from a good vendor like that because of a fancy name? Well, darboy has nothing to lose but what abt the rest who orders from him? Buy what u like with confidence, if u like the fish, does it really matter anymore? "See fish, dun see cert" Thats a saying in my country.
I'm not trying to take sides but as a neutral bystander who is reading this with an open mind, this seems more logical then the hate that is going around. Like haynchinook334 bashing on my country with heresay thousands of miles away, u guys are freaking over something that no one knows for dead sure or jumping to conclusions. I may not know the international trade well, but I know that without vendors to bring in rare fish, we won't have anything at all.
To darboy, I may not know the international trade well, but I do know ur importer didn't catch those fish himself. That means there is no way to prove that urs were WC either. We go by trust, trust to our vendors and importers, but we dun have to disregard every possibility just because we trust them. U ur self said it's the most u spend on a single pb, IF it turns out to be the same fish, will u call ur importer dishonest? Trying to make a quick buck by cheating u? I dun think so, we all know it's not his fault if it was mislabeled by the exporter. peace man.
Thats no loss for me.
It actually saves me $.
So I would call that a gain.
If a fish has touched human hands and has been put in holding pens its offspring are then f1s. Captive bred.
Thank you for being unbiased. After all I didn't try to shove these fish down anyones's throat People can choose what to buy right?
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hi nid, you sound really educated especially in the hobby and in the trade in sing. hats off to you bro.. you are relatively new in mfk right? but with all do respect, when it comes to the international trade, you do not know alot yet.. my importer is reading your posts and tells me to type these for you.
and about my issue with fugupuff, there are still some info that are not available to you guys out there. im not a monster that would divulge all that i know about him. im really tempted to but i wont go down to that level. dont have to and dont want to create issues anymore, im sure fugupuff wouldnt want me to do so as well. my main issue here is the LYING.. hopefully it stops. id like to thank fugupuff as well for kinda admitting little by little. but im sorry that the damage has been done already. I sorta knew that this would happen, i never had enemies in my life and now people dont like me. i never wanted beef with people like ken, nid or the other fugupuff supporters. but i slept like a baby last night knowing i did the right thing, whatever you guys think of me and the other people here that just want HONESTY and ACCOUNTABILITY when it comes to the business, its up to you now. hopefully you wont get dooped in any way in your lives.
This is Nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will tell you what kind of guy WES is I had "never" Ordered any fish from WES before the pinima "EVER"So i had been searching for about a year for pinima and did not want somebody's wrecked beat up junk that could never recover so i found some from an Importer in germany that goes on his own collection expoditions I approached Wes and asked him to import them because if i attempted to do it i figured i would be stuck with a bunch of fish that people would not pay for because they are alays cryen about price!!!!
And guess what Wes did it and he did not even know me ..Made me think this guy is definatly a hobbiest first a vender second in my Mind!!! Chizzle I asked for three got three and it was always three!!!! You Owe WES an apology !!!!!! I contacted A few hobbiest that i knew before they even came in And Chizzle you were "NOT" on that list The few fish that were left WES must have contacted guys he thought might like them AND THIS IS HOW YOU REPAY HIM????? Call him a weasle wong ???? Grow up Dooood!!!And You Darboy you say the fish are like thirty Bucks YA ????? Well Wes had to pay for shipping and An Import Broker to bring them in A flat fee per fish box whatever did you consider that HMMM??????WES never said those fish were Wild caught and yet you want to Hang him wreck his buissness This is a Joke I would say to you folks he Rarely makes a prophet and Probably loses money most of the time !!!! He is one of the Last Venders Standing and yet your willing to treat him like this !!!!!!!If i was Wes I would never Bring in another fish it's just not worth this kind of aggravation so quike to point fingers and so quikley WE When there are no Exotic fish at our disposel WE have had it good maybe to good for to long Very Distasteful i say !!!!!!!!!
Bro, I like u man, but u do know that EVERY vendor is gonna face this problem right? Just because u dun buy from Wes doesn't mean another reputable vendor is not doing the same thing OR exporter labeling these azul as wc to our vendors right. The thing that got to me was that there has been a recent influx of Azuls when they used to be so hard to get WC or not. I'm thinking that MAYBE all wc Azuls imported recently are from these pens. We will nv know but we should be more opened minded. If u really feel so strongly abt this, I advise not taking any Azul to be wc and all as cb no matter who is selling.
