can ya use an actual sump pump for a sump system

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
Assuming you use the recommended 2" diameter plumbing for the Laguna 4200, you should get around 2,800GPH @ 6' of head height. That's almost 10 turnovers per hour which is a lot of flow.

My concern would be whether or not your overflows can handle all that flow; the pump may be too powerful. What size are your overflow drains?
 
were did yo come up with the recommended pipe size ? it says it comes with adapters for 1.25" and 1.5" hose adapters doesnt it ? and i dont have the tank in my possession at this time, im thinking for when i buy this 300g tank i want 72x36x27 just trying to plan ahead and figure out exactly how much is needed to save for spending :) lol....

i would likely use the size of the pipe the pump calls for, the tank i want has 2 corner overflows so im guessing there a standard size ? i would have to email the company that sells it to ask them ... all this will be thrown out the window if i can find the size of tank i want and with a sump all ready to go and thats a big IF lol... and couldnt i just install a valve on the output to adjust for flow pressure and etc if needed ? im going to likely use a spray bar for the return if possible as well, shoul dhelp alot with circulation too
 
As a general rule of thumb, if you are pushing over 2,000GPH it's a good idea to use 2" plumbing in order to maximize the pumps potential. I just checked the manual for the 4200 (I own two of them) and it doesn't say what size pipe you should use. Using 1.5" plumbing on the 4200 will work, but you won't achieve the pumps full potential.

Here's a good read on why larger plumbing is beneficial: http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/advice/outlet-pipe-size-for-pump-is-a-bigger-pipe-better/

Before you buy a pump, your first step should be to determine how many GPH your overflows are capable of handling. This will determine the limit in regards to how powerful of a pump you can use.

Step two is to determine how much head height the pump will have to overcome.

Step three is to determine how many GPH you would like to achieve, keeping your drain size limitations in mind.

Step four is to find the most efficient pump that will give you your desired flow at your given head height.

Hope that helps.
 
I would recommend using the mfg recommended discharge pipe inner diameter. Any bigger and you could actually decrease the amount returned to the tank. The pump curve is based on head pressure, which is essentially the weight of the water in the pipe that needs to be pushed up and over. Conversely, the drains to the sump need to flow as unrestricted as possible, so a larger than discharge inner diameter would be recommended, keeping in mind that the two drain lines will work as a combined diameter. Remember, however, that two 1" return lines is not the same as one 2" return. It involves math and an explanation I am to tired to get into. Suffice it to say, the return to drain ratio should be along the same lines as a canister. A canister has a much larger drain feeding the catch basin than the return to the spray bar.
I am putting 1600gph@approx. 4' of head pressure into my 180. My overflow is 1 1/2".
A side note: Be sure that the pump you get is a pump that will operate against the restrictive pressure of a spray bar or a gate or ball valve.Look into the Reeflo Hybrid pumps. They operate at very low watts, even with the high flow rates and they are very quiet. Dolphin makes an "amp" rated series of pumps that are very good as well and actually decrease in watts consumption when throttled back.
 
Assuming you use the recommended 2" diameter plumbing for the Laguna 4200, you should get around 2,800GPH @ 6' of head height. That's almost 10 turnovers per hour which is a lot of flow.

My concern would be whether or not your overflows can handle all that flow; the pump may be too powerful. What size are your overflow drains?

so i found out the tank i want to buy when it comes onsale every summer typically, is the 300gal deep marineland tank... which has the drains drilled on the bottom of the tank it self, and allow for 700gph each for a total of 1400gph...tank dimensions are 72x36x27 reg $1899 on sale at $1399 http://www.marineland.com/Products/Glass-Aquariums/Deep-Dimension-Corner-Flo-Aquariums.aspx and im kinda unsure what these is they are listing that comes with the tank "dual Loc-Line[SUP]®[/SUP] outlet nozzles"

i figured a pump like this would prolly be perfect at 88watts and 1800gph@12ft max head height (same place id get the tank from) http://www.incredibleaquarium.com/i...oduct_info&cPath=201_190_253&products_id=2294 OR i can go with the laguna pump but it 100watts http://www.petsandponds.com/en/ponds-and-supplies/c5816/c209861/p16438658.html

what you guys think ?
 
I would recommend using the mfg recommended discharge pipe inner diameter. Any bigger and you could actually decrease the amount returned to the tank. The pump curve is based on head pressure, which is essentially the weight of the water in the pipe that needs to be pushed up and over.

I thought the same thing until I was recently corrected by someone on here. What you wrote here (although it seems logical), is actually incorrect. Larger plumbing will never decrease your return pumps flow, but smaller plumbing can. Taken from the link I referenced above:

One of the really hard to grasp principles of hydraulics is the relation of volume of flow, pressure, and the weight of water. Odd as it seems a larger pipe will actually be easier for the pump. It’s not the volume of water, but the height it is lifted that matters. In a way this is a variation on the old saying “which weighs more, a pound of feathers, or a pound of lead?” Obviously both weigh a pound! This version could be phrased “which is easier for the pump, 5 GPM in a 1/2″ pipe or 5 GPM in a 2″ pipe? Neither because 5 GPM is still 5 GPM regardless of the pipe size! Yes, you would need more power if you were actually lifting more water, also we would need more power to lift the water higher, but neither is not what is happening. The amount of water nor the height we are lifting hasn’t changed.

The other issue here is flow through a pipe. This is the issue that actually makes the smaller pipe potentially worse than the larger. Because the smaller pipe is smaller it is harder to force the water through it. The resistance of the walls of the smaller pipe causes pressure loss as water flows through. this is commonly called “friction loss”. How much friction loss occurs depends on the flow rate and pipe size. Both higher flows and smaller pipes sizes result in greater friction loss. This is the only reason a smaller pipe would be worse than the bigger pipe. How much worse is dependent upon the actual flow rate and pipe size.

As a general rule (ie: not always true, but is most of the time) the pipe size of the pump outlet is almost always smaller than the size of pipe that will provide optimal flow from the pump. In other words, if a pump has a 1″ threaded outlet, it is very likely that a 1 1/2″ pipe would be attached to the 1″ outlet for use as the outlet pipe. Pump manufacturer’s tend to use smaller size inlets and outlets to save money.


so i found out the tank i want to buy when it comes onsale every summer typically, is the 300gal deep marineland tank... which has the drains drilled on the bottom of the tank it self, and allow for 700gph each for a total of 1400gph...tank dimensions are 72x36x27 reg $1899 on sale at $1399 http://www.marineland.com/Products/Glass-Aquariums/Deep-Dimension-Corner-Flo-Aquariums.aspx and im kinda unsure what these is they are listing that comes with the tank "dual Loc-Line[SUP]®[/SUP] outlet nozzles"

i figured a pump like this would prolly be perfect at 88watts and 1800gph@12ft max head height (same place id get the tank from) http://www.incredibleaquarium.com/i...oduct_info&cPath=201_190_253&products_id=2294 OR i can go with the laguna pump but it 100watts http://www.petsandponds.com/en/ponds-and-supplies/c5816/c209861/p16438658.html

what you guys think ?

Here's a pic of Loc-line:
Loc-line.jpg

Sounds like the two drains that come standard on the tank are 1". I would see if having the holes expanded to 1.5" is possible. I don't know why, but most mass produced tanks come with really small drains. Larger drains give you a lot more flexibility.

Here is a breakdown of some pump options:
The WaterBlaster 7000 will give you 869GPH @ 6' of head pressure drawing 88 watts (efficiency = 9.9 GPH per watt)
The WaterBlaster 10000 will give you ~1300GPH @ 6' of hed pressure drawing 125 watts (efficiency = 10.4 GPH per watt)
The Laguna Max Flo 2000 will give you 1373GPH @ 6' of head pressure drawing 100 watts (efficienty = 13.7 GPH per watt)

Both WaterBlasters and Lagunas are great pumps; you can't go wrong with either one. It just depends on the turnover you want and which pump is more efficient at your system's head height. If I were in your shoes, I would go with the Laguna 2000 which gets you close to your drains maximum capacity and a bit more efficiently than a comparable WaterBlaster (the 10000). In addition to being more efficient, the Laguna is also quite a bit cheaper. I would put a true union ball valve on the return line (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cepex-ball-valve-1.html) for ease of pump maintenance and to be able to valve the pump back if necessary.

Hope that helps.

Loc-line.jpg
 
At this point of the discussion I start to relive my partial differential equation class back in college and the professor started to sound like "ba blah ba blah blah blah blah" ;)

J/K...very nice write up!
 
Thanks. I like to geek out on this stuff...mostly because I'm a cheapskate and I hate the idea of paying PG&E anymore money than I absolutely have to.

Rob, in case you wanted to see for yourself, here are the flow charts I used. The wattage of the Laguna's is not included in the chart, but models 1500 thru 2400 use 100 watts, 2900 draws 130 watts and the 4200 draws 160 watts.

It looks like Laguna is coming out with a new ("Next Generation") pump that is even more efficient than the numbers I have listed, but I have not been able to find a flow chart for the new Next Generation models. They are being sold here (not sure if they ship to Canada): http://www.azponds.com/New_webpages/New_subpumps_Classic.html

Laguna.png

Not sure why there is a discrepancy with the wattage listed here. Most places I have seen the wattage for the WB 7000 listed at 88 watts, versus the 80 watts listed on this flow chart.

Water Blaster 7000.jpg

WaterBlaster10000_FlowChart.jpg

Laguna.png

Water Blaster 7000.jpg

WaterBlaster10000_FlowChart.jpg
 
hmmmm, some good stuff here now :) and whats the purpose of the union ball valve other then to be able to remove it to do maintence on the pump or to replace the pump, can i not just attach a mesh vinyl hose from the pump to a barb fitting that is glued into the white pvc pipe ? still allows me to remove pump when and if needed... and yea im unsure of the drilled hole size on the tank as the company emailed me back with no info on it lol, but ya im kinda liking the thought of a laguna pump tho less power use and a hair more GPH then all the others im looking at....

still debating between a 110gal stock tank for a sump or an acrylic sump that already to go bio balls and everything just needs a pump and is listed for system up to 300gallons (brand new guy decided not to use it) http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-pets-accessories-Aquarium-Sump-W0QQAdIdZ428064546 also going to keep one fx5 on the tank as well to basically polish water more or less
 
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