How long could this stock stay in a 155g?

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Quo Vadis

Gambusia
MFK Member
Apr 12, 2014
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Wisconsin
I currently have a 155g tank, which I will be connecting to a sump and aquaponics system probably adding a total of 30-50 more gallons in water volume.

How long would this stock be able to to live in this tank? I have put their adults sizes in parenthesis. I only currently have the ENs, and I would be getting everything as babies and growing them out.

8 Elephantnose fish (~9in)
1 Pair Uaru (~10in)
4-5 Geo surinamensis (~10in)
3 Ropefish (~24in, but skinny)
1 African Knifefish (~9in)
1 large eel species, either a Fire eel or Favus eel (~36in and 24in, respectively)
School (6-10?) of either Congo tetras, long-finned tetras, or filament barbs (~4-6in range)

In the next 1-3 years I will be building a plywood tank that will probably be about 300g, but I want to know a reasonable timeline based on this stock.
 
You are probably pushing the limit now as you already have about 30 fish in the tank. The sizes you gave is that their current size?
 
There are a lot of considerations in that plan:

1) At 5 inches per fish, you'll be looking at a 50% WC every 5 days. At 7 inches, you're looking at a daily 50% WC. This assumes they are fed properly as at small sizes they need ample nutrition.

2) A lot of the fish are much more aggressive at feeding while others have narrow food requirements, so some fish will not get adequate food unless very individualized feeding is done

3) Stress levels will likely be high, so immune systems will be weakened

4) Eels will grow quite fast if fed properly and will need their own "space"

5) Uarus are typically kept in groups, not pairs

6) If a fish dies in the tank how will you know?


If fed correctly with good water management, I project 8 months before the tank begins reaching an untenable stage. At some point after that either fish will suffer, you will put in daily maintenance or the fish will be stunted. Maybe all three. And this ignores the actual violence that may exist among the pets many of whom need their own territory.
 
doesn't the elephant nose need to be the only elephant nose in the tank? I read that they are navigating by using electric pulses, it also applies in the knife (correct me if im wrong), and I think you can't have 2 fishes in the tank that uses electric pulse to navigate the tank? I'm not sure though
 
doesn't the elephant nose need to be the only elephant nose in the tank? I read that they are navigating by using electric pulses, it also applies in the knife (correct me if im wrong), and I think you can't have 2 fishes in the tank that uses electric pulse to navigate the tank? I'm not sure though

While I have always heard that, I hav never seen any good evidence for it. But even if it is true, African knives are not electrical, only SA knives. The EN I have at least (Peter's EN) lives in schools in nature, and does much better in schools in captivity. But you need a minimum of 5-6 in the group, or the dominant one will stress the other out, and about 20g per EN (so minimum long term would be a 100g-125g for a group of 5-6) so that is why most people recommend only one per tank.
Interestingly, mine are pretty new, but they school more tightly than any fish I have ever seen. Obviously they are still younger as well, but right now they are almost always physically touching each other while they swim! From what I have seen so far I personally think they are like loaches or corys, that really seem to need to school to have security and social interaction.
 
There are a lot of considerations in that plan:

Could you elaborate on this a little more?


1) At 5 inches per fish, you'll be looking at a 50% WC every 5 days. At 7 inches, you're looking at a daily 50% WC. This assumes they are fed properly as at small sizes they need ample nutrition.

I'm curious how you got to these numbers. Is there some kind of calculation you used? You really think they would need water changes that often even with the massive amounts of nutrients being taken out through the aquaponics?


2) A lot of the fish are much more aggressive at feeding while others have narrow food requirements, so some fish will not get adequate food unless very individualized feeding is done

I am aware of the feeding needs of each of these species. That is why I currently have the ENs alone, getting them feeding well before adding anything else. That is also why the only bottom feeders (ENs, eel, ropefish) are all slower, more deliberate, nocturnal feeders. If I have them eating well before they have to compete, and feed them when the lights are off in addition to the daytime feeding, they should be able to get enough. Or that was my thinking at least.

3) Stress levels will likely be high, so immune systems will be weakened

Could you explain why? All these fish are very peaceful by MF standards.

4) Eels will grow quite fast if fed properly and will need their own "space"

What do you mean by this? Like his own tank, or a hidey hole?

5) Uarus are typically kept in groups, not pairs

I probably would get a few more to begin with and them sell them as they get older when a pair forms. I heard they do fine in pairs when older...

6) If a fish dies in the tank how will you know?

What do you mean?

If fed correctly with good water management, I project 8 months before the tank begins reaching an untenable stage. At some point after that either fish will suffer, you will put in daily maintenance or the fish will be stunted. Maybe all three. And this ignores the actual violence that may exist among the pets many of whom need their own territory.
--> None of these fish are very violent are they? That is my understanding at least. The only fish on the list that are somewhat territorial are the cichlids, AKF (?) and the ENs (but they are really mainly territorial with each other, kind of the way loaches are).

~
 
1) At 5 inches per fish, you'll be looking at a 50% WC every 5 days. At 7 inches, you're looking at a daily 50% WC. This assumes they are fed properly as at small sizes they need ample nutrition.

I'm curious how you got to these numbers. Is there some kind of calculation you used? You really think they would need water changes that often even with the massive amounts of nutrients being taken out through the aquaponics?

Yes, I'm taking the fish length, calculating the girth using similar fish shapes and then calculating a weight for the fish. I am then using the appropriate amount of food needed (given the fish weight and age) and calculating the amount of nitrates being added to the system on a daily basis and using the nitrate level to determine when a 50% water change is needed.

No, I don't know what plants you are using or how many, so I can't make any allowances for it's effect. However, let's say you had an effective plant like pothos and let's say it had around 10 leaves and was growing (not a cutting with one branch and 3 leaves), you would need approximately 18 plants in your system to accommodate a fish load of 4 lbs (around 7 inches length for 30 fish.)


2) A lot of the fish are much more aggressive at feeding while others have narrow food requirements, so some fish will not get adequate food unless very individualized feeding is done

I am aware of the feeding needs of each of these species. That is why I currently have the ENs alone, getting them feeding well before adding anything else. That is also why the only bottom feeders (ENs, eel, ropefish) are all slower, more deliberate, nocturnal feeders. If I have them eating well before they have to compete, and feed them when the lights are off in addition to the daytime feeding, they should be able to get enough. Or that was my thinking at least.

Well, that's a good thing, but the eel will need special attention, and perhaps the knifefish and rope fish as well. The question I raised is whether or not they will all get fed, especially as they get larger.


3) Stress levels will likely be high, so immune systems will be weakened

Could you explain why? All these fish are very peaceful by MF standards.


Many fish are peaceful when they have little competition and plenty of room. In nature, these fish do not live this close together and some of these have never encountered each other in nature. Many have identical needs for food and shelter, which in nature isn't a problem since they can swim away and look for more. In a tank that isn't possible. And, in nature the Peter's EN is aggressive against conspecifics, at least per Fishbase and other sites.

And I'm assuming that you are using sand as for many of these fish, that is important. Bare tanks or gravel could also induce stress to fish that evolved using sand.



4) Eels will grow quite fast if fed properly and will need their own "space"

What do you mean by this? Like his own tank, or a hidey hole?

Fire eels are often kept where they can bury themselves in a substrate or crawl into something like a properly sized pvc pipe. They grow fast when housed and fed properly, with 1" or more per month reasonable. Some post of them reaching 2 feet within a year and a half. To do that they need properly sized food that other fish will not take from them, but many of the fish in the tank are more aggressive feeders (cichlids and tetra). Their food needs might match the EN and the ropefish for example. Which ones would actually eat?


5) Uarus are typically kept in groups, not pairs

I probably would get a few more to begin with and them sell them as they get older when a pair forms. I heard they do fine in pairs when older...

Ok, that's more fish...and what is "older". My post was based upon 5" which is far smaller than Uarus get.


6) If a fish dies in the tank how will you know?

What do you mean?

Are you going to count all 30 fish every day is what I mean. A single dead fish left behind a rock might be all it takes to pollute an over-crowded tank filled with stressed fish. It's easy to notice a missing fish when you have 10, hard when you not only have 30, but many multiples of the same species.


-->None of these fish are very violent are they? That is my understanding at least. The only fish on the list that are somewhat territorial are the cichlids, AKF (?) and the ENs (but they are really mainly territorial with each other, kind of the way loaches are).


There are cichlids which in nature peacefully school together...which will kill each other in a 200 gallon tank. Being unable to swim away and placed where resources are limited is a good recipe for violence. Cichlids are territorial, Fire eels are, Peter's EN is. The tetras and rope fish do not appear to be. Let's assume you have enough territories at 2" in size. That will shrink at 5" and more so at 7". If you had 30 tetras or 30 tinfoil barbs it might not be an issue.



My overall opinion is that you have too many. I'd suggest having 1 set of cichlids (not 2), as the second set can be easily added when you have the larger tank. Uarus and Geos could each be added as group (after a grow out) to a larger tank without disrupting the tank. I'd suggest leaving out the eel or dropping most of the EN as not only does it seem they will compete too closely, but the EN will have a lot of stress with each other. More EN or an eel (after grow out) could be added to the larger tank later where the extra room will allow them to coexist more peaceful. The tetras I would leave out for now as well as those can be added to the larger tank at any time.

You have a nice set of fish no doubt (although I'm not partial to tetras), I like all the other choices. They are interesting, gorgeous and well worth the effort, but some will suffer if you have too many. Too many fish at one time provides the conditions where minor issues, loss of some BB, a dead fish, an ich outbreak, power loss over night, a friend over feeding, etc can become a disaster. I can't imagine how crappy I'd feel if I had raised those fish for 10 months then lost a bunch.
 
I have over stocked tanks in my 420 gallon tanks with a mix of all types of fish,I have noticed that the more fish you have the less aggression I have experienced. I do recommend that if you have a heavy bio load that you do weekly water changes of 75% and vacuum gravel at least every two weeks or every week would be better.my fish are thriving and had most for six years or more.also it would be a good idea to add some extra air stones it makes a big difference.when I feed my fire eel and tire track eel I use a small holding container that hooks on side of tank and has slots on bottom,I put a chunk of frozen blood worms in it and as it melts the eels come up and pick the worms out,works much better than the live cone feeders,as for the Elephant nose they are more of nocturnal feeders maybe feed them when the lights go of at night.as long as you maintain water quality I would not worry about over crowding that is the other peoples opinion.Do what is right for you everyone is entitled to there own.Make sure you are vacuuming under rocks and any thing sitting on bottom.
 
Alright, thanks for the feedback. I am pretty much set on the stock list for the eventual tank, and have done a huge amount of research on the fish and their compatibility, and, as much as one can know ahead of time, am confident they will be fine together. I am more just wondering how long they can grow out in a 155g. But maybe I will wait to add the Uarus...

The only fish I have currently are all the ENs. Right now the ENs are in a 72g "quarentine" (has a cherry shrimp colony they can snack on, and I am getting them feeding well in there before I move them). I would definitely not reduce the ENs, I understand where you are coming from, but they are not like cichlids. They will only cause each other stress in small groups; by nature (and what I have experienced with them so far) is they behave much like loaches or corys. A little jostling, almost like playing, but you get the sense it means something in the social order they have. But they always stick together. They act much less stressed out than my old one I kept singly. Other morymids (even other species of ENs) are different and much more territorial, but Peter's EN are only really behave like that in groups smaller than 4 or 5 or if very over crowded (even at full grown one per 20g is fine).

Also as far as feeding them, the key is to get them feeding before introducing them to a community tank, and not keeping them with other nocturnal, more aggressive bottom feeders like catfish and loaches. But I will also be training both the ENs and the eel to hand feed.

I guess I am more looking to get an idea how fast some of these fish grow. I know they ENs grow slowly, the Eels are faster but usually slow down a lot at ~12-18in (depending on species), the knife is slow growing, and often doesn't get much more than 6in, the ropefish and the cichlids I am not sure about.
 
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