Keep in mind that some Apistogramma tend to form pairs instead of harem breeding. Apistogramma panduro is part of the nijsseni-group and form pairs IME.
Apisto or Discus
- Thread starter TripleW
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Keep in mind that some Apistogramma tend to form pairs instead of harem breeding. Apistogramma panduro is part of the nijsseni-group and form pairs IME.
+1, though I can't say there's one "right" formula for water changes. A lot is what you feed them and how your tank is set up. If you go the bare tank, heavy feed, beef heart and/or unnaturally high protein route, then sure, you should do beaucoup water changes and the rest of the higher maintenance gig. But, speaking from expeirnece, feed them more moderately (and/or naturally), give them a large enough tank and don't crowd them, have a more environmentally balanced tank, and they can grow very well with less work.
Discus wild diet? Do some research (beyond hobby forums) and you tend to find similar to the following:
Heiko Bleher article:
Omnivores in the wild, not the protein gobbling machines some people try to make of them.
Young discis protein requirements?
Aquaculture study
In other words, do the math and higher than 50% protein actually slowed growth. And guess where excessive or inefficiently processed protein ends up? In the water as nitrogen wastes, requiring more water changes.
But like I said earlier, there are different schools of thought on discus. More than one way can work, someone just has to choose which approach they'll take... and some people should be less dogmatic on the "right" and "wrong" way to care for them. My own approach evolved over some years of keeping them, I was always successful with them, just less fanatical with more time and experience.
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I'm a big fan of both groups, and just want to encourage you that keeping tank bred Discus is far easier than you might think. I kept and bred them for years, and while wild fish can certainly live up to the species' difficult reputation, tank bred lines require little more than consistent normal care for good health and even breeding.
Assuming good filtration and other basics, a 10% water change weekly proved sufficient for all my tank bred lines, and I fed them frozen Wattley food, flakes and occasional live foods. Your biggest hurdle will be in selecting good stock at the beginning. A LOT of young fish you see in lfs are going to be in bad shape. If you can get healthy individuals of tank bred fish and keep good maintenance habits, Discus will prove to be hardy and outgoing fish.
I find more challenges keeping apistos, though worthwhile. Aggression and sensitivity are the two biggest hurdles I've found with them.
Assuming good filtration and other basics, a 10% water change weekly proved sufficient for all my tank bred lines, and I fed them frozen Wattley food, flakes and occasional live foods. Your biggest hurdle will be in selecting good stock at the beginning. A LOT of young fish you see in lfs are going to be in bad shape. If you can get healthy individuals of tank bred fish and keep good maintenance habits, Discus will prove to be hardy and outgoing fish.
I find more challenges keeping apistos, though worthwhile. Aggression and sensitivity are the two biggest hurdles I've found with them.
OP stated 2" discus not Adults.
If your going to invest in 2" discus or juvies i would grow them out in a separate tank to at least 5+ inches before putting them in a planted tank. Most people with planted tanks will not commit to 3-4 feedings and Daily water changes that juvies require to reach there max growth of 5-6"+. Keeping Discus is like keeping any other fish but with a little more TLC... With the proper care and diet they can be very enjoyable!
I keep all my adult discus in bare bottom tanks with double stack sponge filters with temp at 83/84 degrees. They get 2 feedings daily with 100% water change once a week. I currently have a pair with fry and the fry get 4-5 feedings daily with 2 feedings with Beef heart and i change 100% water once in the morning and another 100% at night. I feed my crew a mix of tetra color bits, Hans Flakes, Prime reef Flakes, beef heart, blood worms (Treat) and freeze dried black worms.
10-50% water changes once a week with 2" in fish WILL result in stunted discus and you will probably experience disease and sickness JMO...
If your going to invest in 2" discus or juvies i would grow them out in a separate tank to at least 5+ inches before putting them in a planted tank. Most people with planted tanks will not commit to 3-4 feedings and Daily water changes that juvies require to reach there max growth of 5-6"+. Keeping Discus is like keeping any other fish but with a little more TLC... With the proper care and diet they can be very enjoyable!
I keep all my adult discus in bare bottom tanks with double stack sponge filters with temp at 83/84 degrees. They get 2 feedings daily with 100% water change once a week. I currently have a pair with fry and the fry get 4-5 feedings daily with 2 feedings with Beef heart and i change 100% water once in the morning and another 100% at night. I feed my crew a mix of tetra color bits, Hans Flakes, Prime reef Flakes, beef heart, blood worms (Treat) and freeze dried black worms.
10-50% water changes once a week with 2" in fish WILL result in stunted discus and you will probably experience disease and sickness JMO...
True, with some tank setups and methods of feeding, but otherwise-- not necessarily.
I've grown out a lot of discus from from 1-2 inches, wild and domestic, and for me they generally reached 7-9 inches, depending on gender, variety, and individual fish. Never had them getting sick on me, only sick ones I ever had were ones that were sick when I bought them that I tried to rescue (successfully, I might add, with all but two that were emaciated when I got them and didn't last more than a week or two). Two things I never did was keep them in bare tanks or feed beef heart. My discus tanks always had plants, some more than others. I've kept them in ph anywhere from 5.8 to 7.6. Only once did I keep them without other fish. I've done water changes anywhere from every other day (low ph tanks) to once every 4-7 days for young growouts.
The point is they do best with clean water, low dissolved organics (aside from plant based tannins, etc.), low-ish nitrates and good nutrition. But there is more than one way to get there (and I've done it more than one way). Doesn't always have to mean bare tanks, no plants, and lots of water changes. A lot depends on what and how much you feed them, like a lot of other fish. How much you need to feed them to get good growth also depends on what you're feeding and how efficiently they process it... and while beef heart has been debated to death, what I know-- from experience-- is they don't need it to grow to a good size. There are other good growth foods, plain and simple, and my opinion (and experience and research) is in reasonable amounts they can reduce tank maintenance.
In addition to the above references, here's another one relevant to this post: Ideal protein.
were they Stendker Jumbos?
Had the big guys over 20 years ago, they were some of the early pigeon bloods. In fact, what turned out to be the biggest started out as a runt. Back then I'd never thought about taking fish photos, I just took my own experiences for granted and in those days before fish forums I never thought someday I'd want to have some documentation of what I did or had for a later date.
About that same time I saw a pair of what they called at the time "royal king discus", which were massive for discus, very impressive fish. Something like pigeon bloods on steroids, quite a bit bigger and thicker, similar overall color scheme as early pigeon bloods but even more vivid and colorful, black and orange and blue and purple. They were like the size of a really large severum. This was in Massachusetts and they were from a New York breeder. Had a chance to buy them and by the time I thought it over and came back a day or two later the original breeder had taken them off the market and taken them home. So I only saw them once, though I spent a good while staring at them, but I haven't seen any like them since, whether for size or color.
I agree there's a lot of debate on discus, which is why I tend to avoid saying some things are the wrong way to do it, even if it's not how I'd do it. With discus there are too many variables to say any one particular thing will or won't work ime, so you get all these different opinions or experiences. Plus, it's possible some color and breeding strains in recent years may just be weaker. I sometimes forget to account for this or mention it when I comment on discus, but it's almost as though some of them are like EBJDs-- along with some strains of discus you get a weaker, harder to raise fish than they should be or used to be-- or would be compared with some other strains. So what's true in one person's experience could be very different from another's, based on multiple factors, including local water, methods of care and feeding, or the breeding source of the fish.
About that same time I saw a pair of what they called at the time "royal king discus", which were massive for discus, very impressive fish. Something like pigeon bloods on steroids, quite a bit bigger and thicker, similar overall color scheme as early pigeon bloods but even more vivid and colorful, black and orange and blue and purple. They were like the size of a really large severum. This was in Massachusetts and they were from a New York breeder. Had a chance to buy them and by the time I thought it over and came back a day or two later the original breeder had taken them off the market and taken them home. So I only saw them once, though I spent a good while staring at them, but I haven't seen any like them since, whether for size or color.
I agree there's a lot of debate on discus, which is why I tend to avoid saying some things are the wrong way to do it, even if it's not how I'd do it. With discus there are too many variables to say any one particular thing will or won't work ime, so you get all these different opinions or experiences. Plus, it's possible some color and breeding strains in recent years may just be weaker. I sometimes forget to account for this or mention it when I comment on discus, but it's almost as though some of them are like EBJDs-- along with some strains of discus you get a weaker, harder to raise fish than they should be or used to be-- or would be compared with some other strains. So what's true in one person's experience could be very different from another's, based on multiple factors, including local water, methods of care and feeding, or the breeding source of the fish.
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20 yrs ago I spent my fair share of time and money trying to keep Discus never less trying to breed them! Back then we played with more water buffers than anything else were now a days we have the luxury of RO. I had my experience with what was available in the New York market Marlboro reds, Blue diamonds and Turqs is all we had available at the time. Played around with it for a short time then got discouraged from keeping them after many losses. Keeping discus now and 20 yrs ago is night and day!
The stock that is available now whether domestic bred, Asain or German bred are so much hardier than they ever were. They adapt so well to different water parameters that once acclimated they strive... Wilds on the other hand is a different story.
The stock that is available now whether domestic bred, Asain or German bred are so much hardier than they ever were. They adapt so well to different water parameters that once acclimated they strive... Wilds on the other hand is a different story.
