well if anyone here has a good idea on this kind of stuff i think it would be you. thats interesting. i never would have made that correlation though. interesting stuff.
Long term effects of hard water on SA cichlids?
- Thread starter Kaia
- Start date
Having kept and bred all three of those species extensively in hard water with a high pH, I can tell you that you won't have any issues long-term as long as you keep up with your regular water changes and provide a good diet. I've got 6 - 7 year old pairs of wild Heros living in my water with a pH of 7.8+ and they don't have HITH or anything. Acaras and angels, especially tank-bred ones, are very hardy.
However, there are several species that are not as forgiving long-term. Oscars are one, and sometimes I think it may come down to people slacking off on clean water and good food. It's hard to say for sure. But I found personally that some species will eventually give you issues. This includes some wild geos (winemilleri eventually developed HITH for me), H. psittacus, and large lugubris type pikes. I also avoid all Satanoperca and Uaru now. I've had great success with Heros, Mesonauta, and several acara types. Some fish are just more adaptable than others.
Hardness also plays a role. If you have a high hardness, adjusting the pH is not as easy as filtering through peat or adding driftwood. You'd need to remove the buffering capacity of the water first by stripping out some of the hardness (probably with RODI) and then the pH would fall easier. I also think hardness may be just as important in some cases, or maybe even moreso, for some species. Even though I have a high pH, my hardness in my new house is moderate compared to where I used to live, and so I've been able to spawn a lot of species that usually give people with hard water issues. For instance, I never have to use RO to get discus eggs to hatch in my water because it's soft enough that they don't have a problem.
I don't think you'll have an issue with the species mentioned. Keep nitrates below 20ppm (better if they're 10ppm or less), feed a variety of foods and make sure they get plenty of vitamins, and they should be okay.
As Duane mentioned, blackwater fish come from waters where bacterial and viral growth are inhibited. Water has been described from those areas as being like "slightly contaminated distilled water." You take a fish from that habitat and place it into water where bacteria thrives, and the fishes' immune system is inundated by a whole host of nasty stuff that it's never dealt with before. This is why I am a firm believer in huge, frequent water changes. The best way to reduce bacterial and viral loads in your tank is to remove them with water changes. Let your water quality falter and blackwater fish will quickly wilt.
However, there are several species that are not as forgiving long-term. Oscars are one, and sometimes I think it may come down to people slacking off on clean water and good food. It's hard to say for sure. But I found personally that some species will eventually give you issues. This includes some wild geos (winemilleri eventually developed HITH for me), H. psittacus, and large lugubris type pikes. I also avoid all Satanoperca and Uaru now. I've had great success with Heros, Mesonauta, and several acara types. Some fish are just more adaptable than others.
Hardness also plays a role. If you have a high hardness, adjusting the pH is not as easy as filtering through peat or adding driftwood. You'd need to remove the buffering capacity of the water first by stripping out some of the hardness (probably with RODI) and then the pH would fall easier. I also think hardness may be just as important in some cases, or maybe even moreso, for some species. Even though I have a high pH, my hardness in my new house is moderate compared to where I used to live, and so I've been able to spawn a lot of species that usually give people with hard water issues. For instance, I never have to use RO to get discus eggs to hatch in my water because it's soft enough that they don't have a problem.
I don't think you'll have an issue with the species mentioned. Keep nitrates below 20ppm (better if they're 10ppm or less), feed a variety of foods and make sure they get plenty of vitamins, and they should be okay.
As Duane mentioned, blackwater fish come from waters where bacterial and viral growth are inhibited. Water has been described from those areas as being like "slightly contaminated distilled water." You take a fish from that habitat and place it into water where bacteria thrives, and the fishes' immune system is inundated by a whole host of nasty stuff that it's never dealt with before. This is why I am a firm believer in huge, frequent water changes. The best way to reduce bacterial and viral loads in your tank is to remove them with water changes. Let your water quality falter and blackwater fish will quickly wilt.
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Totally agree with Duane & Ryan - and I also live in an area where the water is very hard, with a pH of 8.0. As Ryan stated the fish in question should be fine with those water parameters, others, such as the species that Ryan stated will typically not do well over the long haul.
IMO the frequency of HITH in many of these soft "black water" species is much more than a theory. Most researchers in this area consider the parasites that cause the 'holes' in HITH to be Spironucleus vortens, a parasite not found in fish native to black water systems. As Duane explained many bacteria/pathogens found in hard alkaline water are not found in acidic black water systems. This is the main issue when one attempts to keep fish in water that the fish do not originate from. For many species of fish, a non issue, for others it can be a death sentence.
The trigger for any case of S. vortens is stress, which is why it can be so difficult to diagnose the cause with 100% accuracy. The stress from one tank to another can vary, and depending on the immune response of each fish, what fish become affected by an outbreak can also vary. An older Oscar with a weaker immune system might succumb much sooner/easier than a young Severum found within the same tank. Add to that a dirty water tank with high nitrates & it can result in a more severe outbreak. No different with humans. What might cause a mild chest infection in me, could result in the death (from secondary complications/infections) of an elderly person. An elevated immunes response to fight these infections is where the clean water, and quality diet come into play. For some fish that alone might win the fight, for others medications such as Metronidazole etc are required.
BTW - I can fill my tanks to the brim with driftwood, and it will have almost no affect on the pH of my tank water. From what the OP described about their water parameters, they would have the same results.
IMO the frequency of HITH in many of these soft "black water" species is much more than a theory. Most researchers in this area consider the parasites that cause the 'holes' in HITH to be Spironucleus vortens, a parasite not found in fish native to black water systems. As Duane explained many bacteria/pathogens found in hard alkaline water are not found in acidic black water systems. This is the main issue when one attempts to keep fish in water that the fish do not originate from. For many species of fish, a non issue, for others it can be a death sentence.
The trigger for any case of S. vortens is stress, which is why it can be so difficult to diagnose the cause with 100% accuracy. The stress from one tank to another can vary, and depending on the immune response of each fish, what fish become affected by an outbreak can also vary. An older Oscar with a weaker immune system might succumb much sooner/easier than a young Severum found within the same tank. Add to that a dirty water tank with high nitrates & it can result in a more severe outbreak. No different with humans. What might cause a mild chest infection in me, could result in the death (from secondary complications/infections) of an elderly person. An elevated immunes response to fight these infections is where the clean water, and quality diet come into play. For some fish that alone might win the fight, for others medications such as Metronidazole etc are required.
BTW - I can fill my tanks to the brim with driftwood, and it will have almost no affect on the pH of my tank water. From what the OP described about their water parameters, they would have the same results.
As for the above, if the tap water, has a high enough alkalinity (buffering capacity), that alkalinity can easily neutralize any of the drift wood effects, and your water parameters could barely be effected.
I always kept plenty of drift wood in my tanks, and parameters would not budge, because the alkalinity of my water was so high.
But a high pH does not always mean the alkalinity is high, so this is why in some areas a high pH can drop from 8 down to 6 or lower in the blink of an eye, or a few days without a water change in a well stocked tank.
In the tank below the piece of wood root stock, is at its thickest point is a over 12" across and almost 5' long, pH on the tank never dropped below 7.8, unless I slacked off on water changes.
I always kept plenty of drift wood in my tanks, and parameters would not budge, because the alkalinity of my water was so high.
But a high pH does not always mean the alkalinity is high, so this is why in some areas a high pH can drop from 8 down to 6 or lower in the blink of an eye, or a few days without a water change in a well stocked tank.
In the tank below the piece of wood root stock, is at its thickest point is a over 12" across and almost 5' long, pH on the tank never dropped below 7.8, unless I slacked off on water changes.
so you can have high alkaline tanks without then being alkaline? I'm confused....I thought low 6's and lower was acidic, mid-6's to mid-7's was neutral and 7.8 and up was Alkaline. I don't understand how alkaline isn't alkaline?As for the above, if the tap water, has a high enough alkalinity (buffering capacity), that alkalinity can easily neutralize any of the drift wood effects, and your water parameters could barely be effected.
I always kept plenty of drift wood in my tanks, and parameters would not budge, because the alkalinity of my water was so high.
But a high pH does not always mean the alkalinity is high, so this is why in some areas a high pH can drop from 8 down to 6 or lower in the blink of an eye, or a few days without a water change in a well stocked tank.
In the tank below the piece of wood root stock, is at its thickest point is a over 12" across and almost 5' long, pH on the tank never dropped below 7.8, unless I slacked off on water changes.
