Switched from prime to safe- dead fish

[Wiksta]

All the scenarios seem unlikely to me, but something went wrong. Wiksta is it possible that you inadvertently contaminated your other tanks with a pathogen from the feeder tank in the past three weeks? It is very easy to do, especially when working on multiple tanks. I hope you get to the root of the problem before having to do more wc.

I doubt it. Really the only thing would be the hose i use for the wc. Went from 180 to 55 to 20 so that's backwards. Also don't think if it's a pathogen, this happened suddenly overnight and everything seems good now with the fish. I dont use any other product in my tanks. Just prime/safe.

 

[Wiksta]

The only heavy metals that Prime neutralizes, are normal levels found in most tap water. It does not, and cannot, detoxify or neutralize a large spike of anything, be it copper, lead, etc. That comes directly from the CEO and head chemist of Seachem. Ditto to if the tank had an ammonia spike, neither Prime nor Safe will neutralize the excess free ammonia, unless one is adding extra product to treat the extra ammonia. You guys ought to read my sticky. lol

So unless this happens again, and the OP digs deeper, and runs some tests, chances are this is going to remain an enigma.

How do i dig deeper? I tested the levels and no ammonia present the same day the loss happened so i don't think it's an ammonia spike...

 

[Wiksta]

Hello; Any chance of someone messing with the tanks or the water change equipment? I have known of stuff being put in tanks to kill fish. Years ago in Lexington KY a man with a small shop had a tank of nice clown loaches killed when something was put into his tank. Not an accident.

Also well meaning people have caused problems around tanks. Any chance someone could have done something? I live alone so know which bits of equipment are for tank use only. Even so I mark the buckets "for aquarium use only".

Intentionally, no. Im the only one that messes with the fish stuff. That night the water change was strictly just that. Only thing in the tank was end of the hose and a clamp i keep under the fish tank for that use.

 

[RD.]

Wiksta - last I heard you were waiting to find out if any repairs etc took place in your immediate area.

Generally speaking, fish don't just up and die within hours unless whatever they were exposed to was in an acute toxic form. In my mind that rules out a lot of things, but I don't recall you posting previously that you had tested for ammonia in all 3 tanks directly after the deaths. I guess I missed that. What exactly did you use to test for free ammonia residual? Typically when treating for chloramine and using Prime or Safe, and using a standard test kit, one gets a false positive for NH3, so odd that you would get a zero value.

But let's say for arguments sake not ammonia, not gas bubble disease (unless there were clear & obvious signs of an acute exposure to same), and not the Safe (unless you can prove otherwise) - this is still going to remain an enigma unless you can determine that something funky happened to your local water supply on that date. There's really no other way for this thread to end.

Good luck.

 

[skjl47]

Wiksta - last I heard you were waiting to find out if any repairs etc took place in your immediate area.

Generally speaking, fish don't just up and die within hours unless whatever they were exposed to was in an acute toxic form. In my mind that rules out a lot of things, but I don't recall you posting previously that you had tested for ammonia in all 3 tanks directly after the deaths. I guess I missed that. What exactly did you use to test for free ammonia residual? Typically when treating for chloramine and using Prime or Safe, and using a standard test kit, one gets a false positive for NH3, so odd that you would get a zero value.

But let's say for arguments sake not ammonia, not gas bubble disease (unless there were clear & obvious signs of an acute exposure to same), and not the Safe (unless you can prove otherwise) - this is still going to remain an enigma unless you can determine that something funky happened to your local water supply on that date. There's really no other way for this thread to end.

Good luck.

Hello; Pardon my poor memory if this is not correct. I seem to recall some time ago about a member with low pH doing a large water change. This low pH caused a reaction. I am thinking it was you who pointed this out. If you know about this please comment. If not then never mind.

 

[Wiksta]

Wiksta - last I heard you were waiting to find out if any repairs etc took place in your immediate area.

Generally speaking, fish don't just up and die within hours unless whatever they were exposed to was in an acute toxic form. In my mind that rules out a lot of things, but I don't recall you posting previously that you had tested for ammonia in all 3 tanks directly after the deaths. I guess I missed that. What exactly did you use to test for free ammonia residual? Typically when treating for chloramine and using Prime or Safe, and using a standard test kit, one gets a false positive for NH3, so odd that you would get a zero value.

But let's say for arguments sake not ammonia, not gas bubble disease (unless there were clear & obvious signs of an acute exposure to same), and not the Safe (unless you can prove otherwise) - this is still going to remain an enigma unless you can determine that something funky happened to your local water supply on that date. There's really no other way for this thread to end.

Good luck.

Thanks for your help! I tested the ammonia the day i had the fish loss. So roughly 22 hours after the water change, before i added Prime for good measure at that point. I heard back from the county and no repairs recently. Also they are using chloramine at 3.7.

 

[Doc-Fish]

I am new here so i hope this isnt too controversial, Seachem Prime releases Ammonia after around 10-12 hours, when it was first discovered that Bisulphates could bind Ammonia, the discoverer didnt know the mechanism.

The original intention was a product to completely bind the molecule, when numerous reports surfaced about Ammonia spikes, a decision was taken to change the marketing. The formula was tweaked, but no amount of tweaking could solve the issue. The simplest solution and the one that was adopted was to change a 'bug' into a feature.

So now they claim that Prime is designed to slowly release Ammonia in order to strengthen the filter. The problem with this explanation is the bacteria have a binary division time of around 32 hours, and the chemical rel;eases over 10-12 hours.

So obviously the Ammonia builds as the bacteria cant keep pace. Tetra products were the ones who actually worked out how Prime works, if you read thier patent for Ammonia removal, it clearly shows the mechanism of how bisulphates work. Tetra are also rather scathing in their patent of Prime, obviously they dont name the product, but how many products are made with bisulphates??

I am an aquatic scientist (Bio Chemist working in aquatics), I dont work for either company and i dont have any interest in any product.

The patent by Seachem can be read here [I will post a link once i have enough posts], or you can do a google search for patent number US 4666610 A

The other issue is Seachem Safe.

The bacteria are soil based and quickly die in the aquarium. Not because of the water but because they prefer very limited Oxygen, i will see if i can find the patent again and post it, the patent names the bacteria, then you only have to read up on them, while i do know the species involved, i would rather post the patent details first. Otherwise its just hear say.

I hope the information is of use to someone.

Personally i never use chemicals to neutralize chlorine, they are really not needed these days. But that is a personal choice and opinion.

Dr J.Bell PhD,MSc,FRSC,MRSB
Head of Bio Chemical Research
Knockishee Estate BioTechnology LTD

Edit

I forgot to add, Seachem Prime is also designed to raise the PH, this is so the amount of unionized Ammonia is reduced by converting it to the ionized form (NH4+).

Tetra Patents often contain a great deal of information on other products, they are worth reading for information in their own right.

 

[Wiksta]

I am new here so i hope this isnt too controversial, Seachem Prime releases Ammonia after around 10-12 hours, when it was first discovered that Bisulphates could bind Ammonia, the discoverer didnt know the mechanism.

The original intention was a product to completely bind the molecule, when numerous reports surfaced about Ammonia spikes, a decision was taken to change the marketing. The formula was tweaked, but no amount of tweaking could solve the issue. The simplest solution and the one that was adopted was to change a 'bug' into a feature.

So now they claim that Prime is designed to slowly release Ammonia in order to strengthen the filter. The problem with this explanation is the bacteria have a binary division time of around 32 hours, and the chemical rel;eases over 10-12 hours.

So obviously the Ammonia builds as the bacteria cant keep pace. Tetra products were the ones who actually worked out how Prime works, if you read thier patent for Ammonia removal, it clearly shows the mechanism of how bisulphates work. Tetra are also rather scathing in their patent of Prime, obviously they dont name the product, but how many products are made with bisulphates??

I am an aquatic scientist (Bio Chemist working in aquatics), I dont work for either company and i dont have any interest in any product.

The patent by Seachem can be read here [I will post a link once i have enough posts], or you can do a google search for patent number US 4666610 A

The other issue is Seachem Safe.

The bacteria are soil based and quickly die in the aquarium. Not because of the water but because they prefer very limited Oxygen, i will see if i can find the patent again and post it, the patent names the bacteria, then you only have to read up on them, while i do know the species involved, i would rather post the patent details first. Otherwise its just hear say.

I hope the information is of use to someone.

Personally i never use chemicals to neutralize chlorine, they are really not needed these days. But that is a personal choice and opinion.

Dr J.Bell PhD,MSc,FRSC,MRSB
Head of Bio Chemical Research
Knockishee Estate BioTechnology LTD

Edit

I forgot to add, Seachem Prime is also designed to raise the PH, this is so the amount of unionized Ammonia is reduced by converting it to the ionized form (NH4+).

Thanks for the info. I will look into what you said tonight. What do you do to neutralize chlorine? My county uses chloramine. Does that make a difference?

 

[RD.]

Where exactly does Seachem state any of that, Doc? I have tested both products many times over the years, never once seen a pH increase, or an increase in NH3. I'm pretty anal about this stuff, so feel free elaborate.

 

[RD.]

At 3.7 chloramine you better be damn certain to use a water conditioner, especially with larger water changes (over 10%) no matter what anyone tells you on a fish forum.