Rare item: SHort body Arapaima

[thebiggerthebetter]

And thats where these conversations usually end. All theory.
I do agree though they all seem to be coming out of SE Asia.
Maybe someone like Vince would know. He's got quite a few SB's.

Speaking from my own experience. Ive noticed that my SB paroon has a small defect adipose fin, Its crippled and not fully developed right where his caudal fin starts. That alone makes me think he was born SB. Seeing as an induced physical injury to make a SB probably wouldn't affect this. But thats just one case. He could of been purposefully crippled and already possessed the defect fin from birth.

Agreed.

Your thought about the fin though... hmm... I'd argue that when invasive changes are inflicted on an embryo or a newborn (IDK at which stage the "short-bodying" is done), it will affect everything, especially the adipose fin that's attached to the horribly mutilated multi-folded backbone.

Perhaps they expose early embryos to radiation or chemicals to promote mutations and disfigurements - you know, in an analogy to what they depict in nuclear apocalyptic movies with horrible disfigured human babies being born after the exposure to radiation. (I grew up in an area that suffered the worst of Chernobyl radioactive precipitation. I was 14 when it blew up in 1986, scattering ashes all over Mogilev region of Belarus. We have firsthand seen lots of birth defects in animals, farm and wild, and in people.) That'd be as horrible IMHO as any other technique. But you're right. This is all my worthless theories talking.

 

[Fizzicks]

Radiation is an interesting one.
I think it would be hard to purposefully mutate a trait reliably.
You would also have to use EM radiation most likely gamma rays id assume. (non particle radiation.) Which are not easy to generate. Especially as a fishery.
Targeting high energy photons to specific portions of DNA sounds terribly difficult.
Im no biologist but recent Ive been collaborating with MD researchers on some nano materials. Next time I seem em in the lab Ill ask their opinion. Although I'm not sure if I could get an answer but at the very least another theory to add to the discussion.

Agreed.

Your thought about the fin though... hmm... I'd argue that when invasive changes are inflicted on an embryo or a newborn (IDK at which stage the "short-bodying" is done), it will affect everything, especially the adipose fin that's attached to the horribly mutilated multi-folded backbone.

Perhaps they expose early embryos to radiation or chemicals to promote mutations and disfigurements - you know, in an analogy to what they depict in nuclear apocalyptic movies with horrible disfigured human babies being born after the exposure to radiation. (I grew up in an area that suffered the worst of Chernobyl radioactive precipitation. I was 14 when it blew up in 1986, scattering ashes all over Mogilev region of Belarus. We have firsthand seen lots of birth defects in animals, farm and wild, and in people.) That'd be as horrible IMHO as any other technique. But you're right. This is all my worthless theories talking.

Wow, what an interesting experience. I work in a group trying to make nuclear materials and energy safer for the public. Basically more efficient fuels and containment methods.

I can't imagine being that close to Pripyat. Lots of scary Isotopes, decays and particle radiation. I hope you were able to get out of there quickly. Ive heard differing accounts of the efficiency of the Soviet Unions response and evacuation procedures for the effected areas.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

No, our parents have not taken us out of that area. IDK why. I guess, they didn't worry about it sufficiently, although for years after they have gone to a local farmers market armed with Geiger counters. We grew up there. My wife's got Hashimoto's. I have some strange low white blood cell count.

We had maps of radiation of our region. It was very spotty. Dangerous in one spot, fine in the one next to it. Then it started to all decay and level out and disperse. Bulldozers would skim the top ground layer and bury it in many areas. The worst first offender was radioactive isotope of iodine (thyroid). For many years after, strontium (bones) and another element I forget now.

We had to know what fish should not be eaten. No mushrooms could be eaten. Etc. When we'd go out into country, nature, we take Geiger counters. Same staying in a cabin - radiation was always the highest on the ground right under the roof rain water runoff.

 

[Fishes33]

In my opinion, I don't think they would use radiation to deter the growth, it's too risky and expensive.

Ever thought of polystyrene microplastics? 100% cheap and easy to stunt the growth!

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

I agree. Chemicals would work too to give rise to all kinds of mutations. Whatever they do, I think it is very much morally wrong - exposing healthy embryos to some harsh conditions that cripple them, all in the name of making a sale.

 

[Fizzicks]

No, our parents have not taken us out of that area. IDK why. I guess, they didn't worry about it sufficiently, although for years after they have gone to a local farmers market armed with Geiger counters. We grew up there. My wife's got Hashimoto's. I have some strange low white blood cell count.

We had maps of radiation of our region. It was very spotty. Dangerous in one spot, fine in the one next to it. Then it started to all decay and level out and disperse. Bulldozers would skim the top ground layer and bury it in many areas. The worst first offender was radioactive isotope of iodine (thyroid). For many years after, strontium (bones) and another element I forget now.

We had to know what fish should not be eaten. No mushrooms could be eaten. Etc. When we'd go out into country, nature, we take Geiger counters. Same staying in a cabin - radiation was always the highest on the ground right under the roof rain water runoff.

Thanks for sharing that, as for the missing isotope id assume its some sort of cesium. Based on common fissile products.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Thanks for sharing that, as for the missing isotope id assume its some sort of cesium. Based on common fissile products.

I think you are right. Cs rings the bell. I am surprised and glad to see a serious scientist on this board. I too am a scientist - physical chemistry, organic chemistry.

 

[J. H.]

I am not aware of this defect occurring naturally.

But I am open to knowledge. Preferably from an expert or with substantiating info, with references, citations, and such.

I am far from an expert, but I do know that fancy goldfish grow that way 'naturally'.
Here is an MFK thread about SB (aka bonsai) FHs that also are not mutilated, but bred that way.
I know 'meteor' goldfish and 'heart' BPs do have their tails amputated, so people do such things, but I don't think that is how SBs are made.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...rations-when-choosing-short-body-fish.360533/

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

I am far from an expert, but I do know that fancy goldfish grow that way 'naturally'.
Here is an MFK thread about SB (aka bonsai) FHs that also are not mutilated, but bred that way.
I know 'meteor' goldfish and 'heart' BPs do have their tails amputated, so people do such things, but I don't think that is how SBs are made.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...rations-when-choosing-short-body-fish.360533/

Thanks. Glad to learn. That's promising and I am open to be schooled. I want to be wrong about preaching the morality principles, even if a little bit.

I will read the link later when I have time. I appreciate it, mate.

 

[Chicxulub]

Shortbody fish are displaying a naturally occurring mutation consistent with dwarfism in humans. Whether or not an abusive and unnatural method of artificially producing these fish exists, I do not know. These fish typically wouldn't survive long in the wild.

As to this fish coming out of Asia.... Yes. Do note, however, that the species in which these mutations are displayed are all species which are commonly farmed, which is a controlled environment, not the wild. Once the farmers figured out that they can get 100x the typical value of a normal fish for a deformed dink in the aquarium hobby, they started marketing them appropriately.

Edit: moved to Arowanas since paima are Osteoglossiformes and generally lumped in with Arowanas.

Edit 2: someone asked for a reference, so here it is. This is a hell of a read, but it covers the entire gamut of potential mutations in farmed fish, not just short body. Near the end of the first third there's talk about mutated vertebral columns, to include twisted and missing bones.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/raq.12016/full