Helpppp! 7 months and tank isn't cycled?!

[tarheel96]

I had a blackwater biotope with a ph I kept at 5.8-6.1 no issues with my levels ammonia tested 0 once cycled, didn't take overly long to cycle the tank 2-3 weeks, I had that tank running for 3 years rams. ... I'm going to have to do some more research on bb not being able to convert ammonia at 6.0 ...

Exactly. There are plenty of discus tanks and blackwater tanks with pH at or below 6.0. Nitrifying bacteria do not stop completely until pH reaches 5.5.


http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/71-autotrophic-bacteria-manifesto.html

Your pH is 6.0 then the ammonia produce by the fish is in non toxic form therefore the nitrosomonas can not convert it to nitrite.

So called non toxic ammonium (NH4) and toxic ammonia (NH3) which make up total ammonia (NH3 + NH4) are BOTH converted into nitrite (NO2). Ammonium (NH4) is the predominant ammonia species at pH in most aquariums (under 8.5) and accounts for virtually all total ammonia. If NH4 doesn't get converted into NO2 what do you think happens to all of it?

NH3 and NH4 are in equilibrium around pH 9.24.

 

[kelman]

Exactly. There are plenty of discus tanks and blackwater tanks with pH at or below 6.0. Nitrifying bacteria do not stop completely until pH reaches 5.5.

View attachment 1276332
http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/71-autotrophic-bacteria-manifesto.html



So called non toxic ammonium (NH4) and toxic ammonia (NH3) which make up total ammonia (NH3 + NH4) are BOTH converted into nitrite (NO2). Ammonium (NH4) is the predominant ammonia species at pH in most aquariums (under 8.5) and accounts for virtually all total ammonia. If NH4 doesn't get converted into NO2 what do you think happens to all of it?

NH3 and NH4 are in equilibrium around pH 9.24.

The first paragraph should explain all that is needed to support the fact.

 

[tarheel96]

The first paragraph should explain all that is needed to support the fact.

What fact?

 

[Drstrangelove]

Let's be sure we are talking apples and oranges here.

There are 3 key events or levels:

1) when nitrification is slowed to the point that it can't keep up with ammonia levels. BB populations grow but too slowly to eliminate ammonia and nitrite. (This can be a point that ammonia and nitrite levels inhibit BB population growth.)

2) when BB populations continue to process ammonia but do not grow. At this level the BB population is simply replacing itself and not expanding.

3) when nitrification stops completely and the BB population is essentially hibernating.

These events not only occur at different pH levels, but they do so differently for nitrobacter and nitrosomas. Ammonia and /or nitrite might be present at any of the 3 levels. Nitrates might appear in level 1 & 2, but might not be detected in level 3.

Depending upon which BB one is discussing and which event one is referring to, the pH level will be different since all 3 technically describe a failure in the BB to properly process ammonia & nitrites.

Imo, given this, the generally most useful statement is then that pH levels between 5.5 and 7 will reduce the effectiveness of BB to the point where nitrification will not occur or occur at a level that is inadequate for the aquarium.

The exact pH level isn't as important as keeping aquariums functioning at a level to process at least the amount fish are producing. The presence of nitrite and ammonia in tests is proof that this level hasn't been met.

https://www.climate-policy-watcher....nfluence-of-ph-on-the-nitrification-rate.html

The other consideration of course is that this assumes all things are equal. Lower oxygen levels, lower temperatures, the presence of ammonia or nitrites, the level of potassium all raise or lower the level at which nitrification will eliminate ammonia and nitrites.

 

[twentyleagues]

I think we've gone a little off of topic not directly off but we have some disturbing info that isn't being addressed. The fact that ammonia isn't processed at 6.0 ph is important but not so much as why is the pH that low to begin with. With the pH out of the tap above 7 we shouldn't have these issues. But once in tank the pH drops drastically. .....why? Fix that and you may not have to worry if the bacteria will be converting ammonia at 6 ph. I'm not saying to throw chemicals at it......yet.
To the op what do you do for mechanical filtration? Anything? Do you have an abundance of organics in the water decaying leaves, drift wood?

 

[Jay335]

Another question. How long can bacteria live out of water? Changing 40-50% of my tank takes about an hour and a half. Is it possible the bacteria that's not submerged died?

Only other thing I can think of is that the cycle restarted. A month ago I had cloudy water but now it's crystal clear.

 

[Jay335]

I'm using API test kit. Isn't expired lol. Bare tank no driftwood or any plants. Not sure why PH is dropping I've been replacing my polyester and washing my sponges in tank water every three months or so. That's all I have for mechanical besides carbon.

The fish aren't thriving but still living with no problems and eating. So I don't want to raise the PH to where the ammonia becomes a problem if this really was the case. You guys think the tank would correct itself over time and many water changes?

 

[Drstrangelove]

Another question. How long can bacteria live out of water? Changing 40-50% of my tank takes about an hour and a half. Is it possible the bacteria that's not submerged died?

Only other thing I can think of is that the cycle restarted. A month ago I had cloudy water but now it's crystal clear.

As soon as they dry, they're basically dead. They have to be kept moist which is why you'll find them in water and soil. However, their population will recover, but it's best to keep any filter material submerged since that's where most of the bacteria is going to be found.

The tank itself will have BB, but not nearly the concentration along the sides.

 

[twentyleagues]

This is why I have both submerged and trickle style filter. I do a weekly 80% water change and it takes a bit to refill the tank so the media that is trickle can dry and some of the bb dies. But the submerged is fine and the trickle should rebound quickly because of the oxygen it has available. Accumulated organics and possibly a low kh is probably destroying your ph. Do you have a lot of mulm in your sump? Id figure out a way to incorporate some other form of mechanical filtration. I just am dealing with this also, I have 3 porosities of sponge and filter floss when I designed my filter tower I figured this would catch all the debris well it doesn't, not to my liking at least. I'm building a filter sock "chamber" to be my first line of mechanical. Ill keep the sponges and the filter floss in the tower just because. I plan on changing out the socks every 1-2 days I got 12 so 1 on each pipe gives me 6 days before I wash them. Ill be able to drain and rinse the chamber also during water changes to help remove anything that gets through the sock and settles there.

Id start with the ph issue clean out the debris and get better mechanical. See if that helps the ph issues if not try to add a few bags of crushed coral 1 at a time to help your kh and see if that helps.

As I stated before please get a second opinion on your tests take your water somewhere and have them test it. I have 2 lfs in the area that test water 1 is free and the other charges a $1 per test (dumb). The guys that do it free know me and my tank so when I come in with water they break out the salfert and Hannah meters. I use api but I have had them be way off either through user error or what ever but if I get a weird reading I go to them and its usually a false reading.

 

[Jay335]

Alright so I skipped feeding for one day.
Water params are now still 6 PH ammonia is at .25-.50 nitrite at 0 nitrate at 30-40PPM

So the bacteria is there and it's converting. The tank probably restarted a cycle and the Low PH is because of the cycle?