How to lower PH without RO and tannins?

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Not true, because H+ and OH- and the formula used to calculate them, are interrelated. When the balance between them is the same, the pH is the same. Basically the concentration of them both can be larger or smaller but as long as the concentration is in the same ratio, pH remains the same.

What formula? How are they related? This most certainly is true. There is no ratio of H+/OH- is the definition of pH. Moreover, in every example you gave the ratio is the same. Every formula containing pH you can come up is derived from the definition pH = -log[H+].
 
What formula? How are they related? This most certainly is true. There is no ratio of H+/OH- is the definition of pH. Moreover, in every example you gave the ratio is the same.

No, the ratio is not the same. The ratio changes as the pH changes, for a pH of 7 the ratio is 1:1. For a pH of 6, the ratio is 100:1, etc...I don't see how you calculate/see the same ratio given different pH or pOH value examples?

As for formula how they are interrelated, for example [H+][OH-] = 10x^-14
 
No, the ratio is not the same. The ratio changes as the pH changes, for a pH of 7 the ratio is 1:1. For a pH of 6, the ratio is 100:1, etc...I don't see how you calculate/see the same ratio given different pH or pOH value examples?

As for formula how they are interrelated, for example [H+][OH-] = 10x^-14

I'm referring to your statement earlier
"Which means 100 H+ for every 1 OH-. But one can have the same pH of 6 and have 1000 H+ for every 10 OH- or 10,000 H+ for every 100OH-, meaning the pH remains the same although the actual number of ions can increase."

Again, concentration of H+ is the defining characteristic of pH, not the ratio of ions...

[H+][OH-] = 10x^-14 is the Kw of water as i mentioned earlier. Where is pH in this equation? Where is there a ratio of H+ to OH-?
 
I'm referring to your statement earlier
"Which means 100 H+ for every 1 OH-. But one can have the same pH of 6 and have 1000 H+ for every 10 OH- or 10,000 H+ for every 100OH-, meaning the pH remains the same although the actual number of ions can increase."

Again, concentration of H+ is the defining characteristic of pH, not the ratio of ions...

[H+][OH-] = 10x^-14 is the Kw of water as i mentioned earlier. Where is pH in this equation? Where is there a ratio of H+ to OH-?

You're using the definition for pH on its own, taking it into account on its own, which you can't have in any water solution. Where is the pH? I already demonstrated that several times..not sure what you're asking me here. My earlier statement is based on the same below calculation.

I am using the same formulas you posted and are known in basic water chemistry. As in my previous statement:

if pKw = pH + pOH = 14,

and [H+] = 1x10^-pH

and [OH-] = 1x10^-pOH

then for a pH of 6, the ratio of [H+]/[OH-]=1x10^-pH/1x10^p-OH=1x10^-6/1x10^-8=100:1

or for a pH of 7, the ratio of [H+]/[OH-]=1x10^-pH/1x10^p-OH=1x10^-7/1x10^-=1:1

You can clearly see the formulas I am using so I am not sure why you keep asking me the same question. Its a simple mathematical equation with two unknowns....basic maths using basic chemistry.

Here is a link talking about the ratio between Hydrogen Ions (H+) and Hydroxyl Ions (OH-).
I certainly didn't come up with this on my own :)
It is called: "ACIDS VERSUS BASES". LESSON 1: Basic Chemistry

It doesn't go as far as calculating every ratio but that's the relation between them theoretically.

http://personal.psu.edu/staff/m/b/mbt102/bisci4online/chemistry/chemistry4.htm
 
You're using the definition for pH on its own, taking it into account on its own, which you can't have in any water solution. Where is the pH? I already demonstrated that several times..not sure what you're asking me here. My earlier statement is based on the same below calculation.
Where is the pH? Calibrate a potentiometer stick in solution and it will tell you the chemical potential in terms of [H+]. Or for a home aquarist use a test kit.

I am using the same formulas you posted and are known in basic water chemistry. As in my previous statement:

if pKw = pH + pOH = 14,

and [H+] = 1x10^-pH

and [OH-] = 1x10^-pOH

then for a pH of 6, the ratio of [H+]/[OH-]=1x10^-pH/1x10^p-OH=1x10^-6/1x10^-8=100:1

or for a pH of 7, the ratio of [H+]/[OH-]=1x10^-pH/1x10^p-OH=1x10^-7/1x10^-=1:1

You can clearly see the formulas I am using so I am not sure why you keep asking me the same question. Its a simple mathematical equation with two unknowns....basic maths using basic chemistry.

Here is a link talking about the ratio between Hydrogen Ions (H+) and Hydroxyl Ions (OH-).
I certainly didn't come up with this on my own :)
It is called: "ACIDS VERSUS BASES". LESSON 1: Basic Chemistry

http://personal.psu.edu/staff/m/b/mbt102/bisci4online/chemistry/chemistry4.htm

That's the problem with basic chemistry, or blackboard chemistry. Its simplified for pedagogical purpose and doesn't tell you whats really going on. Saying that there equal parts 1:1 H+ and OH- is pH 7 is only true if there are no buffers in the water that can abstract protons. You're using the pKw of water to calculate pH and are making the assumption that the ion product water is the only dissociation reaction occurring in solution. If there are other buffering species in water you have to account for these as well and you end up with a long series of equations. These other buffering salts will abstract protons or hydroxide so calculating the ratio is meaningless because you can't calculate either concentration [H+] or [OH-] to any degree of accuracy . In any aquarium this is most certainly the case, unless your tank its barebottom and you use 18M ohm cm-1 water (ultra pure). The best way to get pH is best done by direct measurement rather than a blackboard calculation. I keep mentioning pH=-log[H+] because this is the easiest quantity to measure and calculate and is the most fundmanteal.

You use the equation pkw = pH + pOH

This is derived from

kw = [OH-][H+]

taking the logarithm

logkw = log[OH-][H+]

multiply out

logkw = log[OH-] + log[H+]

multiply everything by -1

-log kw = -log[OH-] + (-log[H+])

pkw = pOH + pH

notice how I just used the definition of pH to derive this?


To reiterate, the link you gave is absolute true if we are only considering pure water or water with only strong acids/bases and no buffering species.
 
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Where is the pH? Calibrate a potentiometer stick in solution and it will tell you the chemical potential in terms of [H+]. Or for a home aquarist use a test kit.



That's the problem with basic chemistry, or blackboard chemistry. Its simplified for pedagogical purpose and doesn't tell you whats really going on. Saying that there equal parts 1:1 H+ and OH- is pH 7 is only true if there are no buffers in the water that can abstract protons. You're using the pKw of water to calculate pH and are making the assumption that the ion product water is the only dissociation reaction occurring in solution. If there are other buffering species in water you have to account for these as well and you end up with a long series of equations. These other buffering salts will abstract protons or hydroxide so calculating the ratio is meaningless because you can't calculate either concentration [H+] or [OH-] to any degree of accuracy . In any aquarium this is most certainly the case, unless your tank its barebottom and you use 18M ohm cm-1 water (ultra pure). The best way to get pH is best done by direct measurement rather than a blackboard calculation. I keep mentioning pH=-log[H+] because this is the easiest quantity to measure and calculate and is the most fundmanteal.

You use the equation pkw = pH + pOH

This is derived from

kw = [OH-][H+]

taking the logarithm

logkw = log[OH-][H+]

multiply out

logkw = log[OH-] + log[H+]

multiply everything by -1

-log kw = -log[OH-] + (-log[H+])

pkw = pOH + pH

notice how I just used the definition of pH to derive this?


To reiterate, the link you gave is absolute true if we are only considering pure water or water with only strong acids/bases and no buffering species.

Yes, I know how the formula is derived .What's the point to re-type it here? But thank you, it confirms what I've used is correct.

And yes, I've simplified things, so have you to prove me wrong. My point is still that pH measure is meaningless, It points to a ratio between acids and bases. You have no idea what type of acids and basis are affecting your tank, concentrations of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions, total numbers, etc...There are so many factors in play that one can't have a meaningful picture of their water quality by knowing the pH, because.....in your own words: "you can't calculate either concentration [H+] or [OH-] to any degree of accuracy"

But we don't need accuracy. All one needs to know is that the pH changes when the ratio is skewed but it is the cause and the initial "other" water properties that are important, not that the ratio or the pH, etc...have changed, because again....having this bit of info on its own tells you zilch.

For example, there are often people worried about pH being changed by CO2 injection, thinking the swing in pH will affect fish....which it doesn't . It affects fish because CO2 in certain concentration is toxic to certain species of fish, and high CO2 is generally toxic to all living beings in a tank. So if fish are affected, it has nothing to do with the swing in pH...It doesn't even change the water properties much either....It is plain toxic, that's all.

I gave a previous example, which I will repeat, that one can arrive at exactly the same pH for several different reasons, RO water being added, old tank syndrome and CO2 injection, completely different water properties but one can arrive at the same exact pH. ...So what does the pH tell you?
 
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