Chinese-English translation of food ingredients

[islandguy11]

Honestly nothing to be jealous, sg and Malaysia are like siblings.. I also prefer the darker gold of Malaysia xb as compared to the lighter gold of sg but some people prefer the lighter gold because it looks like gold bar while the darker Malaysian xb is more copper color

Food wise I just try different types till I feel I got the one the fishes like most... but since the post was about prebiotics then vitagen and yakult comes to mind lol

My bichirs and indo tigers like some China made pellets... cichlids like a certain hikari pellet

The gar don't mind hikari tropical sticks but never eaten the carnisticks

To me there is no best food but only food that fish likes best

The grandsumo is a good example

Oh ya not sure if your hotdog juice is said in jest but I do fish for gar, redtail catfish and even rohu with hotdog

Agreed there certainly is no best fish food and also agreed that Singapore and Malaysia are like siblings bro -- lots of love there. But like in many if not most sibling relations, there's quite a few rivalries going on between the countries, that's natural, incl. the goal to produce the world's best Arowana. But nothing wrong with this I'm sure we'll all agree, in fact we should love it as it makes better Aro for us all I hope,

Actually I was just joshing you, just like I know you've been doing about this Sianlon food too. It's just that I haven't seen you make similar funny jokes about other fish food posts, hence the rivalry reference in jest.

And same for the hotdog juice -- I'm sure you certainly aren't going to feed your lovely new Red Arowana hotdogs (at least I think not, right?). In fact it was a playful jibe in relation to your asking: "What's wrong with feeding hotdogs, i fish using hotdogs too and i know of a person from another forum that feeds baked beans to his fishes... ." in the now closed thread about Rich and Ohio Fish Rescue (wherein I personally posted it was understandable for Rich to feed hotdogs as partial diet given circumstances he's in).

But now we've done it lol, next thing we know young Tommy Jr. who just got a new baby silver arowana and skims over this thread is going to starting feeding it Yakult-soaked hotdogs and baked beans lol

And for sure, there are a hundred things you could catch a wild fish on (that one wouldn't necessarily want to feed to their aquarium fish) -- heck I've caught fish on nothing before (just a hook, no bait), but I'm not going to feed nothing to my Aros unless they don't eat the food I give them

 

[Galantspeedz]

Actually I wasn't joshing about sianlon.. not sure what makes you keep thinking I have something against or jealous about sianlon or even Malaysian counterparts and since I have no arowana farm... they aren't my competitors... I just pay for what I like regardless if sg or MY.

I don't even think there is a best arowana... because that is at best subjective

In my reading of limited different brand of pellets... all are described like is a super food.. there is very little regulation on such claims in most if not all Asian countries... neither do I don't have the resource nor the knowledge to know if what is claimed is true so I just take it with a pinch of salt

If the red aro is willing to eat the hotdog and it cause the aro no harm... what's wrong with feeding it? But of course if it has been scientifically researched that it will caused fish or aro harm then I will not feed it.. that being said I not sure if anyone feeds their aro oyster but I do and he loved it.. is it good for them? I don't know

 

[RD.]

Fish food discussions generally only cause issues with those that are bliss in their ignorance.

Numerous raw ingredients can be flaunted by manufacturers as being immunostimulants, even ingredients such as garlic, and ginseng, which are also both utilized in commercial aquaculture. At the same time some ingredients that are considered prebiotic and/or probiotic, are mainly utilized as digestive aids, to promote an increase in overall digestion of the feed. In my probiotic thread I touch on that a bit, companies that use lower cost terrestrial based plant matter (corn/wheat/soybeans/etc) in place of more costly fish/krill/squid/shrimp/etc, then market their food formulated form lower cost ingredients as "probiotic". Hmmmmm, yeah, ok. It's a gimmick, and and many consumers fall for this. It's good to read labels, but one needs to understand the BIG picture that gets painted, along with each individual raw ingredient listed on the label.

The issue with aros is they produce a limited amount of amylase, which is quite high in species such as carp. So the carb/starch inclusion rate must in turn be limited, in the more carnivorous species such as aros etc. Carnivores simply cannot assimilate the large amounts of carbs/starch that a carp can. Fish farmers are just that, farmers, so while they focus on things such as feed conversion ratios, and total digestion, and the overall health of their produce, at the end of the day what they really focus on is $$$$$$$.

I recall first reading this paper approx. 10-15 yrs ago, when an associate of mine at that time, who was partial owner of an aro farm in Sing, was approached by Hikari to trial some new aro food that they were supposedly developing.

Characterization of digestive enzymes in a carnivorous ornamental fish, the Asian bony tongue Scleropages formosus (Osteoglossidae)

This study attempted to characterize three major classes of digestive enzymes in arowana fish, a popular and highly valuable ornamental fish species u…

www.sciencedirect.com

At that time, I believe that this Sing based farm was already feeding pellets to their aros.

 

[RD.]

and unlike the last one on this list, I'd bet Sianlon doesn't contain Ethoxyquin (unless they've changed their formula since the last debacle).

My advice would be to keep that bet low, real low. lol Most commercial fish food is preserved with EQ, listing that fact is law in North America, but skirted around by many manufacturers. In Asia, there would be no such regulation in most countries. If not EQ, then for sure BHA, and or BHT. The more eco friendly alternatives would be too costly, for most Asian producers.

 

[RD.]

And I hope you don't mind, Barrett, this is one of my friends aro tanks (he had more, lots more!) that I would maintain when he was away on business trips. His fish ate better than I do! lol

 

[islandguy11]

My advice would be to keep that bet low, real low. lol Most commercial fish food is preserved with EQ, listing that fact is law in North America, but skirted around by many manufacturers. In Asia, there would be no such regulation in most countries. If not EQ, then for sure BHA, and or BHT. The more eco friendly alternatives would be too costly, for most Asian producers.

Yeah I'll admit without lab reports (impossible to get from any companies out this way lol) I did leave myself open on the EQ claim -- TBH I was in fact jumping to conclusions, perhaps based on my (limited) knowledge of 2 other brands out this way, both of whom purportedly don't use EQ, Hikari and Azoo.

I haven't been in touch with Hikari, but regarding Azoo's Ultra Fresh I did reach out to their office last year and directly asked if it contained EQ. Of course they could have been lying through their teeth like quite a few companies do -- and not only in Asia to be fair, even if more common here, but also right there in North America with Northfin too and their little EQ PR nightmare lol.

But here was Azoo's reply:
"We don’t add Ethoxyquin preservative in our Ultra Fresh series (or other AZOO fish foods) since we have dry our food down to min. 3% water to keep the food not get moldy."

Now I'm not sure if that's true, I'm not sure if it's even logical, and I'm not sure if like you say they might use some other preservative like BHA or BHT -- but yes I perhaps naively believed them and extended it also to Sianlon given they only target more local markets and don't have to ship half way around the world -- maybe they don't need EQ was my assumption. But sure, I reckon they would have to use something as a preservative.

But just for the sake of argument let's say Sialon contained BHA or BHT instead of EQ. Not great maybe, and yeah I wish they used Naturox, but it would nonetheless lead me to ask: which has more potential negative health consquences, EQ or BHA/BHT?

Personally, I'd again bet (lol, double or nothing?) that EQ is the worst of the 3 (in fact BHA & BHT curiously have the potential for both bad and beneficial effects according to this study): http://www.iffo.net/system/files/Uses of ethoxyquin and alternatives 1993-7.pdf, something I kind of doubt can be said about EQ.

Likewise it's my understanding that at least BHA & BHT are GRAS (generally accepted as safe), and approved for use in human foods/products in US/many countries (even if there are quite a few studies that question this is good or bad) -- while EQ 100% for sure is not allowed as a direct additive for human products, only animal feed, etc. Sure people and fish aren't the same, but I think I'll take the BHA/BHT thanks

That said, I have absolutely no idea if Sialon contains EQ, BHA, BHT or something else, would love to see a lab report but that's wishful thinking.

But what about the king of fish food (popularity wise) Hikari? Are they skirting around such laws as you mention? What are they using instead of EQ as a preservative? Also I wonder if they use different ingredients between their Asian and North American/European products, or are they exactly the same?

And getting back to Sianlon Arowana pellets and my (possibly) lost wager: EQ, BHA & BHT are used as stabilizers, or more specifically as antioxidants, right? (so that fish food doesn't get moldy/go bad too fast, and container ships don't blow up en route to manufacturers).

I could be waaay off base, but could the fungal polysaccharides -- proven natural antioxidants -- that Sianlon contains (and coincidentally Azoo Ultra-Fresh also btw), possibly be acting in this capacity (so no need for EQ/BHA/BHT), or are we talking about 2 different processes?

I personally don't have a clue, just throwing an idea on the table. But if this were correct, perhaps some of these Asian fish food companies are more progressive than we often them give them credit for.

Or they could all just be a bunch of corporate crooks lol, who don't care if my Aros live 2 years or 20, I really don't know for sure. That said they certainly they do operate with much less governmental control and health/safety oversight compared to Western countries, nobody can argue against this. I hope some day, over time, this will change in Asia/SEA.

 

[islandguy11]

And I hope you don't mind, Barrett, this is one of my friends aro tanks (he had more, lots more!) that I would maintain when he was away on business trips. His fish ate better than I do! lol

Awesome Chili Red(?) Neil (and the rays aren't too shabby either, thanks for sharing. I wonder what your buddy feeds that beauty?

 

[RD.]

Oh my, where to start. lol Stating that a company does not add EQ, is miles away from stating that the food is EQ free. Most don't add EQ, the processors of the raw ingredients, such as fish meal, and krill meal, add it. Typically no need to add more at the end of the processing run. So yeah, unless a 3rd party independent lab analysis is performed, most companies bend the actual truth, just like NF did. Hikari's food is made in Japan, and shipped to the USA. If you believe their fish food is EQ free I have a beautiful little tropical island here that I will sell for dirt cheap. lol

EQ is also approved for human grade foods - such as chili powder, ground chili, and paprika (100 ppm)
Also, in at least one study that I read years ago EQ was shown to help prevent cancer, so all of this data can be spun in almost any direction that someone wants. I've been following the EQ fiasco in the pet trade for 30+ yrs.
EQ does not personally bother me, at least not when used at approved levels.

 

[islandguy11]

Oh my, where to start. lol Stating that a company does not add EQ, is miles away from stating that the food is EQ free. Most don't add EQ, the processors of the raw ingredients, such as fish meal, and krill meal, add it. Typically no need to add more at the end of the processing run. So yeah, unless a 3rd party independent lab analysis is performed, most companies bend the actual truth, just like NF did. Hikari's food is made in Japan, and shipped to the USA. If you believe their fish food is EQ free I have a beautiful little tropical island here that I will sell for dirt cheap. lol

EQ is also approved for human grade foods - such as chili powder, ground chili, and paprika (100 ppm)
Also, in at least one study that I read years ago EQ was shown to help prevent cancer, so all of this data can be spun in almost any direction that someone wants. I've been following the EQ fiasco in the pet trade for 30+ yrs.
EQ does not personally bother me, at least not when used at approved levels.

Yes I'm well aware that even if a company claims they don't add EQ there could still be EQ in the products, but isn't there just as much chance they're using BHA/BHT -- or is EQ cheaper than BHA/BHT?

Btw, how much you selling that island for? Damn liars at Hikari!

Also I'm not sure about Sianlon (because they do say they use krill), but with Ultra-fresh they also say they use only locally-caught seafood in seas near Taiwan, so they don't have to import their seafood ingredients like most others companies, so maybe it's true their products actually do not contain EQ. Of course I have no way of knowing for sure and no I don't want to buy another island

And I stand corrected, yes, EQ is allowed in some countries, in very limited ways for human usage, e.g. the chili and paprika you mention (USA), as well as a pesticide for some fruits in some countries. That said the EU and Australia do no permit its usage at all in human food additives, so I'm really surprised the USA does -- which Senator's state is producing lots of chili powder and paprika lol?

All of that said, fully agreed, it's so easy to find one study or another to support one's thinking on so many issues, whether scientific or societal -- I still don't know whether eggs are good or bad lol, everyone keeps changing their views every 5 years or so lol, it's hard to keep track.

And btw, I actually also don't feel EQ usage in properly regulated amounts is end of the world -- we assuredly take in way more carcinogens walking down most busy city streets -- it's just I would prefer it wasn't in my or fishes food if avoidable, hopefully products like Naturox will become more cost effective over time.

 

[RD.]

EQ has been the go to preservative of fish meal for decades, so if you see fish meal on a label, chances are pretty high that it was preserved with EQ. If it was preserved with something more organic/natural, that too will be on the label. No sense spending the extra money if you don't flaunt the bragging rights of using something like Naturox. Consumer lap that stuff up.

Also I'm not sure about Sianlon (because they do say they use krill), but with Ultra-fresh they also say they use only locally-caught seafood in seas near Taiwan, so they don't have to import their seafood ingredients like most others companies, so maybe it's true their products actually do not contain EQ. Of course I have no way of knowing for sure and no I don't want to buy another island

Sianlon also states a shelf life of 2 years, which is kind of difficult to do unless at some point the white fish meal, and krill meal, fish oil, etc has been subjected to some form of preservative. Moisture levels aside, eventually fat goes rancid.

Again, I don't have any issues with EQ, unless a manufacturer is using 2-3 times the level of what has been approved for the pet food industry, which is what NF was apparently caught doing.