Vancouver_98683
if you ever get down that way you need to check it out!180 degree switch in fish food: lost too many show fish, need better food
- Thread starter thebiggerthebetter
- Start date
Vancouver_98683
if you ever get down that way you need to check it out!
Freshwater fish are relatively easy to keep healthy, long term, especially cichlids. I posted the following recently in another discussion.
A fish that eats detritus in the wild does not do so because it is the best nutritional option available in their ecosystem, it does so because it has evolved over many years to survive on the waste of others. That has become it's niche, and it is about survival, not because it creates a nutritional advantage for the fish.
I have yet to find a species of cichlid, that cannot be kept healthy & thriving for many years, on a diet of pellets. Often, far more years than the average lifespan of the same species in the wild. A well maintained glass box is easy street compared to the feast & famine cycle of nature.
Viktor's carpintis didn't die from eating the wrong food, it died from eating too much food. It was grossly obese! Had a necropsy been performed the fish examined would have with almost certainly showed fatty infiltration of the liver, heavy vacuolation, and severe necrosis of the liver, pancreas, and spleen. That's what killed his fish, not because leaves and detritus didn't make up part of his diet.
Cichlids are a snap to keep in captivity. If you want a challenge set up a marine tank. Then stock it with some of the more sensitive marine species, such as Rock Beauty, Moorish Idol or Achilles Tang. For species such as these a mediocre diet results in a very swift death sentence for the fish. (weeks/months, not years!) It doesn't matter how much variety you offer them, if the nutrients aren't provided in sufficient quantity, in the proper balance, and in a form that the fish can fully assimilate, the fish simply won't survive. It's that simple. Yet even those species can now be successfully kept thriving in captivity, for years.
The OP has a feed situation far different from the average aquarist, or MFK member. His "tanks" are massive, and numerous, with hundreds of large hungry mouths to feed. The cost is just as massive as his tanks, he needs a solution that will be nutritionally suitable for his fish, while at the same time not breaking the bank.
As I previously alluded to, some of the fish in certain tanks may need to be moved around, so that feeding behavior (aggressive feeding species with aggressive species) also matches their feeding type (carnivore/omnivore/herbivore) while overall feeding a lot less. There are some doable workarounds that Viktor can apply, I think that we should all focus on that. I think that Viktor's switch to a much higher nutritionally quality food is a step in the right direction, I was simply attempting to help him save some of his hard earned $$$ while doing so.
A fish that eats detritus in the wild does not do so because it is the best nutritional option available in their ecosystem, it does so because it has evolved over many years to survive on the waste of others. That has become it's niche, and it is about survival, not because it creates a nutritional advantage for the fish.
I have yet to find a species of cichlid, that cannot be kept healthy & thriving for many years, on a diet of pellets. Often, far more years than the average lifespan of the same species in the wild. A well maintained glass box is easy street compared to the feast & famine cycle of nature.
Viktor's carpintis didn't die from eating the wrong food, it died from eating too much food. It was grossly obese! Had a necropsy been performed the fish examined would have with almost certainly showed fatty infiltration of the liver, heavy vacuolation, and severe necrosis of the liver, pancreas, and spleen. That's what killed his fish, not because leaves and detritus didn't make up part of his diet.
Cichlids are a snap to keep in captivity. If you want a challenge set up a marine tank. Then stock it with some of the more sensitive marine species, such as Rock Beauty, Moorish Idol or Achilles Tang. For species such as these a mediocre diet results in a very swift death sentence for the fish. (weeks/months, not years!) It doesn't matter how much variety you offer them, if the nutrients aren't provided in sufficient quantity, in the proper balance, and in a form that the fish can fully assimilate, the fish simply won't survive. It's that simple. Yet even those species can now be successfully kept thriving in captivity, for years.
The OP has a feed situation far different from the average aquarist, or MFK member. His "tanks" are massive, and numerous, with hundreds of large hungry mouths to feed. The cost is just as massive as his tanks, he needs a solution that will be nutritionally suitable for his fish, while at the same time not breaking the bank.
As I previously alluded to, some of the fish in certain tanks may need to be moved around, so that feeding behavior (aggressive feeding species with aggressive species) also matches their feeding type (carnivore/omnivore/herbivore) while overall feeding a lot less. There are some doable workarounds that Viktor can apply, I think that we should all focus on that. I think that Viktor's switch to a much higher nutritionally quality food is a step in the right direction, I was simply attempting to help him save some of his hard earned $$$ while doing so.
I have the space to store 100 ton but it will not be as cool, dark, and dry as would be the best, is what I wanted to say. To spend 1000 lbs will take me probably very roughly 20 months. I am afraid the food will not have been fresh after several months.
So Ken of Ken's fish food is not a miller but a middleman too.
I have had a relationship with Zeiger for over 10 years, so I can ask them. As for other millers, IDK who they are, their names, etc. I am clueless. How do I look this up? Is there a list of the US based ones?
Thank you for that.
Right, which is why I am looking for better pellets based on aquatic animal protein sources.
Agree again, which is why I am looking for pellets based on the ingredients of aquatic origin, not terrestrial plant or animal.
If you are saying you observed it in the wild, it may be rationalized as they were hungry and willing to fill their stomachs with anything even remotely edible. Or they needed 100% fiber to sweep their intestine clean for one reason or another. I also read that cichlids (all or not IDK, those were studies of African cichlids) are able to adjust the length of their intestines to the currently available food source, which is mighty remarkable.
Agreed too, which is why, again, I am looking for better pellets. Thank you for expanding on my reasons of wanting a better food for my fish and for the info on the variability of needs in cichlid nutrition. Much appreciated.
I’m a subscriber to your channel Viktor!. Have u considered milling your own pellets with an extruder machine? Additional content(s) for your series.
Thank you so much. Is it easy once one gets the machine? Are the machines affordable? I've never even looked into it. I'll make it a point to.
Thank you for these clarifying paragraphs.
This rings very true from the practical point of view. I am guessing Duanes had the most natural / ideal scenario on his mind, which is a good reference point to be aware of and understand it too, as RD is helping us.
To repeat myself for clarity's sake, pellets are presently around $400 a month since I am doing 100% NLS. The other 50% of the food is the frozen whole marine bait fish and VitaChem, which are extra to this, probably another $100 a month. So $500 / month all in all or $6000 / year.
We are growing though...
I will think and consider the reshuffle. My first reaction is this will be hard or even impractical from other compatibility issues that must be satisfied but it is worth a good thought. So far in my hobby life, I have never bothered to consider anything else but physical safety of tank mates in choosing who to place with whom. Even this is often a gamble and not uncommonly it doesn't pan out.
We couldn't appreciate it more.
What do you think of these koi pellets for the koi and carp exhibit of ours (not for others)?
Kenny's Vibrant Vittles Koi Color-Enhancing Diet with Wheat Germ and Spirulina 35% Protein 1/8" Floating Pellets - Bulk Packaging - 5, 10, and 20 lbs
Don't confuse with Ken's Fish Food.
americasbestkoifood.com
$80 for 20 lbs = $4 / lb
Color Enhancing Formula with Wheat Germ | Recommended for Year-Round Feeding of Koi and Goldfish.
Kenny’s Vibrant Vittles is a 35% premium protein diet. Formulated as a staple diet specifically for ornamental fish ponds and aquariums, this fish food is easily assimilated and will help keep your fish and pond water healthy all year long! Natural spirulina improves and maintains koi color during warm and cool season feeding regimens. Contains essential fatty acids for healthy growth and easy-to-digest wheat germ meal, giving your fish a healthier and more vibrant life!
Available Pellet Sizes 3.5 mm (about 1/8") Extruded Floating Pellets
Absolutely no artificial colors! Color enhancing ingredient is natural spirulina, safe and nutritious - and fish love it!
Does not contain corn or corn ingredients. Ideal for koi and goldfish ponds.
Ingredients: Fish Meal, Wheat Germ Meal, Spirulina, Soybean Meal, Whole Wheat, Wheat Middlings, Feather Meal, Fish Oil, Montmorillonite Clay, Soy Protein Concentrate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, (Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, Calcium Propionate, VITAMIN PREMIX CONTAINING: Vitamin E Supplement, Stabilized Ascorbic Acid, Inositol, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Supplement, Pyridoxine HCL, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Supplement, Vitamin K (MSBC), Folic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, and Vitamin B12 Supplement. MINERAL PREMIX CONTAINING: Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, and Sodium Selenite. Also contains Ethoxyquin (preservative).
Guaranteed Crude Analysis:
SHIPPING: Free standard shipping!
Kenny's Vibrant Vittles Koi Color-Enhancing Diet with Wheat Germ and Spirulina 35% Protein 1/8" Floating Pellets - Bulk Packaging - 5, 10, and 20 lbs
Don't confuse with Ken's Fish Food.
Kenny's Vibrant Vittles Koi Color-Enhancing Diet with Wheat Germ and Spirulina 35% Protein - Choose Small or Large Pellets - 20 lb Bag
Color Enhancing Formula with Wheat Germ | Recommended for Year-Round Feeding of Koi and Goldfish. Kenny’s Vibrant Vittles is a 35% premium protein diet. Formulated as a staple diet specifically for ornamental fish ponds and aquariums, this fish food is easily assimilated and will help keep your...
americasbestkoifood.com
$80 for 20 lbs = $4 / lb
Color Enhancing Formula with Wheat Germ | Recommended for Year-Round Feeding of Koi and Goldfish.
Kenny’s Vibrant Vittles is a 35% premium protein diet. Formulated as a staple diet specifically for ornamental fish ponds and aquariums, this fish food is easily assimilated and will help keep your fish and pond water healthy all year long! Natural spirulina improves and maintains koi color during warm and cool season feeding regimens. Contains essential fatty acids for healthy growth and easy-to-digest wheat germ meal, giving your fish a healthier and more vibrant life!
Available Pellet Sizes 3.5 mm (about 1/8") Extruded Floating Pellets
Absolutely no artificial colors! Color enhancing ingredient is natural spirulina, safe and nutritious - and fish love it!
Does not contain corn or corn ingredients. Ideal for koi and goldfish ponds.
Ingredients: Fish Meal, Wheat Germ Meal, Spirulina, Soybean Meal, Whole Wheat, Wheat Middlings, Feather Meal, Fish Oil, Montmorillonite Clay, Soy Protein Concentrate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, (Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, Calcium Propionate, VITAMIN PREMIX CONTAINING: Vitamin E Supplement, Stabilized Ascorbic Acid, Inositol, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Supplement, Pyridoxine HCL, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Supplement, Vitamin K (MSBC), Folic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, and Vitamin B12 Supplement. MINERAL PREMIX CONTAINING: Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, and Sodium Selenite. Also contains Ethoxyquin (preservative).
Guaranteed Crude Analysis:
- 35% Protein (min)
- 7% Fat (min)
- 5% Fiber (max)
- 0.9% Phosphorus (min)
SHIPPING: Free standard shipping!
Kodama koi supply
www.kodamakoisupply.com
HI SILK KOI FOOD 22 LBS
$195.00 for 22 lbs = $9 / lb
Hi-Silk 21 Koi Food is designed to produce beautiful sheen in the colors of Nishikigoi, especially the white of Nishikigoi.
With Hi-Silk 21 koi food, the growth rates of Nishikigoi are noticeably faster than other high protein food and the body conformation is vastly improved, all without causing the stomach to bulge. Mamoru Kodama, Grand Champion & founder of Kodama Koi Farm helped with the development of the recipe for Hi-Silk 21 Koi Food.
Benefits of Hi-Silk 21 Kodama Koi Food:
Think about how you feed yourself? If you want your koi to look like Champion Koi, you should feed them food designed by Grand Champions. Fish are friends, think about their food. Just like a person you are what you eat. Buy it for their health.
To learn more about Mamoru Kodama's quest for the perfect koi food, go to WWW.KODAMAKOIFOOD.COM.
Packed with Freshness! To keep maximum freshness HI-SILK 21 is packed with aluminium-vapolizaing and is thermally sealed up.
Ingredients: White fish meal, silkworm chrysalis meal, wheat flour, soybean meal, rice bran, wheat germ meal brewers dried yeast, silk powder, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin E, the others, 10 kinds of vitamins, 11 kinds of minerals.
Hi Silk 21 Analysis: Crude Protein: 43.8%; Crude Fat: 8.9%; Crude Fiber: 1.9%; Moisture: 6.3%; Ash: 7.6%.
HI-SILK Sinking (10kg / 22lb)
BUY THIS FEED (22LB SINKING PELLETS) TO PROMOTE GROWTH AND IMPROVE SHIROJI (WHITE GROUND)
www.kodamakoisupply.com
HI SILK KOI FOOD 22 LBS
$195.00 for 22 lbs = $9 / lb
Hi-Silk 21 Koi Food is designed to produce beautiful sheen in the colors of Nishikigoi, especially the white of Nishikigoi.
With Hi-Silk 21 koi food, the growth rates of Nishikigoi are noticeably faster than other high protein food and the body conformation is vastly improved, all without causing the stomach to bulge. Mamoru Kodama, Grand Champion & founder of Kodama Koi Farm helped with the development of the recipe for Hi-Silk 21 Koi Food.
Benefits of Hi-Silk 21 Kodama Koi Food:
- Noticeably Faster & Healthy Growth
- Natural and Silky White
- High Quality Protein, Vitamins & Minerals
- Carefully-selected Raw Materials
- Packaged For Freshness
Think about how you feed yourself? If you want your koi to look like Champion Koi, you should feed them food designed by Grand Champions. Fish are friends, think about their food. Just like a person you are what you eat. Buy it for their health.
To learn more about Mamoru Kodama's quest for the perfect koi food, go to WWW.KODAMAKOIFOOD.COM.
Packed with Freshness! To keep maximum freshness HI-SILK 21 is packed with aluminium-vapolizaing and is thermally sealed up.
Ingredients: White fish meal, silkworm chrysalis meal, wheat flour, soybean meal, rice bran, wheat germ meal brewers dried yeast, silk powder, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin E, the others, 10 kinds of vitamins, 11 kinds of minerals.
Hi Silk 21 Analysis: Crude Protein: 43.8%; Crude Fat: 8.9%; Crude Fiber: 1.9%; Moisture: 6.3%; Ash: 7.6%.
If you are saying you observed it in the wild, it may be rationalized as they were hungry and willing to fill their stomachs with anything even remotely edible. Or they needed 100% fiber to sweep their intestine clean for one reason or another. I also read that cichlids (all or not IDK, those were studies of African cichlids) are able to adjust the length of their intestines to the currently available food source, which is mighty remarkable.
My bocourti and pearsei ate wood, and papyrus in my tanks, actually visually reducing the size of some logs, and reducing papyrus plants from 4 ft to nubs, so they were not at all doing it out hunger, they were very well fed.
Like pleco's that eat wood, there may be natural enzymes, and bacteria in wood that aid in their digestion, and may be only available in wood products.
Consider tropical parrots that eat clay off dried river banks, it neutralizes certain toxins naturally found in the seeds they constantly eat.
There are also toxins and seemingly indigestible ingredients in certain terrestrial leaves that normally fish eat (many people consider pothos to be toxic) my bocourti and pearsei, also ate it, and other last leaves. Could it be the wood, that changes those undigestables, to needed digestibles ?
I don't consider feeding fish to be, just about the obvious human value judgement knowledge and awareness of nutrients.
As a chemist/microbiologist, I have found the more I know, and learned, the more the mysteries that I didn't know, or learned piled up.
My bocourti and pearsei ate wood, and papyrus in my tanks, actually visually reducing the size of some logs, and reducing papyrus plants from 4 ft to nubs, so they were not at all doing it out hunger, they were very well fed.
Like pleco's that eat wood, there may be natural enzymes, and bacteria in wood that aid in their digestion, and may be only available in wood products.
Consider tropical parrots that eat clay off dried river banks, it neutralizes certain toxins naturally found in the seeds they constantly eat.
There are also toxins and seemingly indigestible ingredients in certain terrestrial leaves that normally fish eat (many people consider pothos to be toxic) my bocourti and pearsei, also ate it, and other last leaves. Could it be the wood, that changes those undigestables, to needed digestibles ?
I don't consider feeding fish to be, just about the obvious human value judgement knowledge and awareness of nutrients.
As a chemist/microbiologist, I have found the more I know, and learned, the more the mysteries that I didn't know, or learned piled up.
Last edited:
The guy that runs NLS lurks on the reef2reef . com forums. You might be able to track him down there and shoot over a PM
The guy that runs NLS is a friend of mine, he isn't going to make food for Viktor, or anyone else. Neither would the vast majority of manufacturers.
Viktor - IMO you should stop looking at various online vendors, and talk to the folks at Zeigler. If you can't store food in AC cooled conditions, then yes, you will need to keep your feed for a few months at a time, or nutrient levels will suffer.
Viktor - IMO you should stop looking at various online vendors, and talk to the folks at Zeigler. If you can't store food in AC cooled conditions, then yes, you will need to keep your feed for a few months at a time, or nutrient levels will suffer.
Yes, Sir, yes.
You speak, I listen and do. Feel free to tell me if I should have written something differently. Here is my first email to Zeigler sent 5 min ago (I called and found through the menu their nutrition specialist but they don't answer nor take voicemail...).
So I wrote to quality control manager I have dealt several times before.
* * * * *
Hi Christopher,
I've been buying Zeigler pellets, specifically aquaculture finfish silver 40-10, for 12 years and now I need to change what I feed my fish. I've looked at all the pelleted food on your website but you withhold the ingredient lists, so I couldn't understand which product could be adequate to my new goals.
I am not a fish farmer, I run an educational Public Aquarium and a Fish Rescue and with years found that fish don't last as they should on the abovementioned Zeigler pellet I feed them. The fish's lifespan is shortened by 2x to 10x versus expected and normal.
These roughly $1/lb delivered pellets do their job well raising fish quickly and efficiently but this is not my goal. My goal is to have the fish live a full lifespan and longer. For now I have switched to the New Life Spectrum pellets, which run me roughly $10-$12/lb. Their ingredient list and quality are ideal and the best there is in my opinion available out there (no terrestrial or non-aquatic major ingredient except the wheal flour binder), but this is the other extreme and I'd like to ask your help in finding a compromise between the quality and the price.
Or perhaps you mill NLS or Hikari or NorFin etc. high quality pellets under their label too and I could just buy directly from you and not having to pay the overhead to middlemen on Amazon and EBay and such.
I also need a better quality feed for our exotic carp and koi exhibit than the finfish silver 40-10. Toward this purpose, a moderate inclusion of ingredients of terrestrial plant matter may be permissible.
I'll await your advices.
If you are not the right person to address, please, forward my email to the right person.
Thank you.
Viktor
* * * * *
He probably means if I could buy directly from Pablo, or so I imagine... Existing products, not anything special for me.
The NLS plastic buckets are hermetic enough, no smell, that I could store at home under AC but we run our AC high, usually 83 F.
You speak, I listen and do. Feel free to tell me if I should have written something differently. Here is my first email to Zeigler sent 5 min ago (I called and found through the menu their nutrition specialist but they don't answer nor take voicemail...).
So I wrote to quality control manager I have dealt several times before.
* * * * *
Hi Christopher,
I've been buying Zeigler pellets, specifically aquaculture finfish silver 40-10, for 12 years and now I need to change what I feed my fish. I've looked at all the pelleted food on your website but you withhold the ingredient lists, so I couldn't understand which product could be adequate to my new goals.
I am not a fish farmer, I run an educational Public Aquarium and a Fish Rescue and with years found that fish don't last as they should on the abovementioned Zeigler pellet I feed them. The fish's lifespan is shortened by 2x to 10x versus expected and normal.
These roughly $1/lb delivered pellets do their job well raising fish quickly and efficiently but this is not my goal. My goal is to have the fish live a full lifespan and longer. For now I have switched to the New Life Spectrum pellets, which run me roughly $10-$12/lb. Their ingredient list and quality are ideal and the best there is in my opinion available out there (no terrestrial or non-aquatic major ingredient except the wheal flour binder), but this is the other extreme and I'd like to ask your help in finding a compromise between the quality and the price.
Or perhaps you mill NLS or Hikari or NorFin etc. high quality pellets under their label too and I could just buy directly from you and not having to pay the overhead to middlemen on Amazon and EBay and such.
I also need a better quality feed for our exotic carp and koi exhibit than the finfish silver 40-10. Toward this purpose, a moderate inclusion of ingredients of terrestrial plant matter may be permissible.
I'll await your advices.
If you are not the right person to address, please, forward my email to the right person.
Thank you.
Viktor
* * * * *
He probably means if I could buy directly from Pablo, or so I imagine... Existing products, not anything special for me.
The NLS plastic buckets are hermetic enough, no smell, that I could store at home under AC but we run our AC high, usually 83 F.
Last edited:
Well I don't think that I would have worded it quite like that, but let's see what he comes back with. The only food that I know of that Zeigler private labels, or at least used to, is Xtreme. New Life has their own extruders, and makes their own food on location in Homestead FL. Northfin is produced here in Canada, and Hikari is made in Japan.
83F? That's not AC, that's a tropical heat wave where I live! lol My AC is set at 72F in the summer, now that's one cool breeze.
83F? That's not AC, that's a tropical heat wave where I live! lol My AC is set at 72F in the summer, now that's one cool breeze.
