180 degree switch in fish food: lost too many show fish, need better food

[thebiggerthebetter]

Wow. Homestead. This is my backyard! Could I contact this operation and ask if they'd sell directly to me? It's only 1.5-2 h from me, I could even pick up. I understand you said NLS is an overkill for f/w fish but if I am able to get it 2x cheaper, $5-$6/lb, I think I'd not look any further.

From May to Oct, our AC's are not able to maintain a lower temp in the daytime. With trio of our old, inefficient by current standards 5-ton AC units on two buildings we are maxed out. Plus we ration as much as we can, so we set them at the highest tolerable temp our Russian bodies can handle. If we set them at say 75 F, as most Americans prefer, we'd pay for this luxury about a grand a month in electric charges. If we are not inside, we turn the AC off and even as it is, it costs us a few hundred $ a month.

Do you hear violines? Haha...

 

[ReApEr666]

Not saying ur suspects about food/diet arent a valid reason for ur losses Vik...but i think you need to look into even more “basic” solutions such as water quality and maybe tempature. Nitrates over 20 along with higher tempatures will kill just about anything over time IME. So will stress from water changes alone. The higher temps hold more diseases, speed up metabolism, lower 02 levels...and that will shorten life spans. I know this is hard being in Florida but u may be able to supplement clean/cooler water 24/7 with autodrips or atleast calculate the cost of fresh water vs. the food bill and weigh the option of what is a better “upgrade” for ur scenario. The scale of ur operation is a big hurdle for any upgrade i know. Maybe worth setting up a cple “experiment tanks” to test these theories of cleaner/stable water vs. diet before u try and do 1 upgrade for the masses. I think ull b surprised of the positive effects of autodrips alone in maintaining “stability” and eliminating the negative effects of water changes.
Do u experience more deaths in the summer when temps are the highest and the water is at its lowest quality with less o2. Are the deaths in fish that may live in lower temp ranges? Larger/adult fish tend to prefer cooler water. This may explain fish doing well to a certain point in their life under the current circumstances.
Please do not take offense to these theories, i do not mean to hijack this thread thats about diet but felt i had to offer other reasons as i dont feel all ur “random deaths” are from diet alone. Feel free to PM me as to not ruin this thread further. If not, no biggie. I wish you luck in finding a positive solution and moving forward.
Sincerly,
An old friend

 

[RD.]

but if I am able to get it 2x cheaper, $5-$6/lb, I think I'd not look any further.

Not happening. I thought that I mentioned that already. You need to contact a feed mill, as in an operation that produces commercial feed in bulk, for many customers - not a manufacturer of a well known brand. The latter will have no interest in supplying you with lower cost feed.

If water quality & elevated temps (affecting 02 levels?) are part of the problem, that is news to me. If this is true, then Reaper has another good avenue for you to investigate.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Not saying ur suspects about food/diet arent a valid reason for ur losses Vik...but i think you need to look into even more “basic” solutions such as water quality and maybe tempature. Nitrates over 20 along with higher tempatures will kill just about anything over time IME. So will stress from water changes alone. The higher temps hold more diseases, speed up metabolism, lower 02 levels...and that will shorten life spans. I know this is hard being in Florida but u may be able to supplement clean/cooler water 24/7 with autodrips or atleast calculate the cost of fresh water vs. the food bill and weigh the option of what is a better “upgrade” for ur scenario. The scale of ur operation is a big hurdle for any upgrade i know. Maybe worth setting up a cple “experiment tanks” to test these theories of cleaner/stable water vs. diet before u try and do 1 upgrade for the masses. I think ull b surprised of the positive effects of autodrips alone in maintaining “stability” and eliminating the negative effects of water changes.

Thank you much, I appreciate your thoughts and help. All my tanks have been on continuous 24/7/364 water change from the start, resulting in 100% WC in 5-7 days in all tanks. It's not an autodrip though, it's an autostream haha... We make and spend on WC 5,000-10,000 gallons of RO water in house daily. We mix in back about 15% of our light-brackish well water into the RO water and both our household and the fishes get this mix - the same clean potable water which we drink too.

It's news to me that NO3 over 20 ppm in combination with high temps is somehow especially harmful. My NO3 vary mostly from 10 to 20 ppm, sometimes 40 ppm.

All my tanks are vigorously stirred and aerated. The measured DO levels are not lower than 6-7 ppm even at the highest water temps of 85-90 F.

I understand what you are driving at but I also believe that the water quality is adequate for most. The temp may be too high for some but these are excluded from the list of deaths in the OP as I am reasonably sure it was the temp they couldn't handle. The biggest sources of problems (illnesses and deaths) outside of nutrition are two: tank mate aggression and pathogen introduction / presence and these two lie outside of the scope of this discussion, you are right.

Do u experience more deaths in the summer when temps are the highest and the water is at its lowest quality with less o2. Are the deaths in fish that may live in lower temp ranges? Larger/adult fish tend to prefer cooler water. This may explain fish doing well to a certain point in their life under the current circumstances.
Please do not take offense to these theories, i do not mean to hijack this thread thats about diet but felt i had to offer other reasons as i dont feel all ur “random deaths” are from diet alone.

I can't say I've noticed a seasonal tendency but now that you mentioned it, it looks reasonable and worth future attention. The thought about the adults and cooler temps is too worth attention. Thank you.

Yes, as you rightfully state and as my OP states too, I believe only half of the deaths I'd blame on the diet, in the other half it was only a significant contributor.

Not happening. I thought that I mentioned that already. You need to contact a feed mill, as in an operation that produces commercial feed in bulk, for many customers - not a manufacturer of a well known brand. The latter will have no interest in supplying you with lower cost feed.

Thank you, Neil. Yes I understood... I thought so anyway, now I see I haven't... but how can I a priori tell a feed mill from a manufacturer of a well known brand? Aren't all feeds branded, perhaps apart from the generic lowest quality pellet bags sold at Tractor Supply Co, CountryMax, and the like at 10-25 cents per lb?

Don't generic feed mills mill and sell brand feeds under license? IDK sincerely. I am clueless.

You said talk to Ziegler. I am. But they are a manufacturer of a well known brand. Now you say I shouldn't approach manufacturers of well known brands. So I am confused, as is reflected in my unreasonable actions in your eye that you have to repeat yourself over and over. I apologise.

Also, have you meant that I ask Zeigler to mill a pellet for me based on my own recipe, however close or not I want it to be to the NLS's recipe on their labels?

 

[RD.]

Sorry Viktor, I apologize for my comments not being clearer from the start. Finding it difficult to keep my head on straight lately.

Many feed mills in the USA make aquatic based food. How many exactly I do not know. Some make food for commercial pond use, and will sell those products to whomever, some of those also manufacture and sell what's referred to as "private label" products, for LFS brands, as well as various online vendors, etc. As an example, a co-worker used to work at the local Purina mill, that also made generic food for pond fish, as well as Ol Roy brand of dog food for Walmart. The name Purina was never to be seen on those labels. Purina was only printed on Purina brand cat & dog food bags, but over the years they produced food for a number of vendors. Walmart was a huge customer.

Zeigler Bros make their own products, you can see those foods online, such as the ones that you order, but will also private label products if it is worth their effort. This is what they used to do (maybe still do?) for Xtreme food. Guys like Ken doesn't make his own food, most online vendors do not, they get their food from a mill, like Zeigler. Some will come up with basic formulas they are interested in, then the mills will sort out the fine details for the various recipes. As an example, a koi food, such as what you posted previously. Obviously the quality can vary greatly from formula to formula, based on the raw ingredients being used.

Other companies, such as New Life, and Hikari, have their own machinery, their own staff, their own packaging, and produce their own products from start to finish. They tend to only deal with wholesalers, and wholesale distributors.
No muss no fuss of directly dealing with the masses. That is left to the retail outlets.

Does that help? If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

 

[duanes]

Nitrates over 20

While I don't know that nitrates over 20ppt will outright acutely kill quickly.
I do believe constant nitrate levels over 20ppm, are the cause of chronic problems as fish age.
Most of the nitrate research, has been done on fish destined for the dinner table, so may not be relevant to long lived show species.
I have done years of testing as a chemist on natural waters, and found all the waters I've tested, to normally contain undetectable nitrate levels, While working in the US for 20 years as a chemist in a water plant testing the parameters of Lake Michigan Raw water, levels averaged <1.0ppm, and now in Panama on the waters, where the cichlids and other fish I keep inhabit (< 5ppm).
Even the stream in the photo below on the island of Taboga during the dry season, the nitrate level presented non detectable amounts.


My guess is the surrounding terrestrial plants simply suck up all available nutrients, before they do damage to habitat residents.
This seems to be the case with all other waters I've tested here in Panama.

The difference between 5ppm or less, and 20 ppm is quite significant, so to me the standard accepted aquarium norm, may be in need of revising for fish that live in high quality waters.

 

[RD.]

...... or it's not nitrate levels at all that are the issue, but the build up of other substances, such as bacteria, that cause health issues when levels climb. Nobody seems to have that data. I personally only use nitrates as a measuring stick for more toxic/lethal substances.

 

[esoxlucius]

Is there any evidence that suggests that fish can build up an immunity to levels of nitrate, similar to how species of fish can be ok in a higher or lower ph level than they're used to. After all, we're told that it's the fluctuations in ph that are bad, not a specific consistent level.

If they are able to build up a sort of immunity to a certain level of nitrate, then could our weekly water changes, which will obviously play havoc with the nitrate level, be a factor in nitrate poisoning? Nitrate up and down up and down on a weekly basis!

As RD said, I think all the other toxins that build up are of significance, possibly more than the nitrate even?

 

[duanes]

I don't think fish build up immunity to pH but of course some tolerance is likely, but they may build up immunity over time to bacteria that live in certain pH levels, at least until normal aging does its natural damage, same as in humans.
Most bacteria are very pH specific, so a fish that has evolved to live in low pH waters would have no need to develop immunity to high pH bacteria, hence when put a low pH evolved fish in high pH water, it often becomes infected by higher pH preferring bacteria like heximita.
Add nitrate to the higher pH, and you also seem to get a healthier breeding medium for these pathogens, but not the fish.

 

[RD.]

IMO nitrate toxicity is a misnomer. But in a glass box, when one sees higher nitrate levels, they typically also see higher levels of overall pollution, including dissolved organic compounds, along with elevated levels of bacteria. The latter is what weakens the fishes immune system, not the nitrates.