What am I doing wrong with Geophagus?

[WOLF2013]

I have had bad luck with geophagus! Every one I have had has perished except for Satanperca, I have had great success keeping them! Am I doing something wrong?
I was given 2 geophagus red heads about 2-3'' each in a span of a week both ended up passing. I had them in my 55 gallon grow out which houses a koi angelfish, 2 panda angels, a 3'' chocolate cichlid, 3 threadfin geophagus/acara/hecklii (whatever else you want to call them lol my lfs sold them to me as large growing bolivan rams even though they don't look like them when bigger), some tiger barbs a baby silver aro about 4'', and a few sun cats 2''. They would have been upgraded to my 150 gallon when they grew a bit more.
The only thing I can think off is maybe the 55 is going through a cycle? I had set it up and used established media and let it run for a week. Then I added fish a week later but I added most at once so maybe it caused a cycle? The geophagus were eating and did well. The only aggression issues were between the geo and hecklii but the geos bullied the hecklii and the chocolate only chased them from the plants. I have live plants in the tank too.
My friend who gave me the geophagus thinks it could be that the tank is new and not established or that the geos got hurt by my gravel. I have the regular run of the mill gravel that came with the tank. If that's true I'll remove it and go barebottom.
Should I wait a bit before getting any other geos?

 

[duanes]

Most Geo's as adults need at least a 6 ft tank, preferably with sand substrate.
They do best in a group of at least 5 or 6 of their own kind, and most of the northern S American types from Amazonia, prefer soft, lower mineral content water, with pH 7 or lower and very low nitrate (< 5ppm) and highly oxygenated water, with moderate to heavy flow across the length of the tank.
With a low flow, in smaller tanks, and nitrates above 10 ppm, they tend to get HITH, and become quarrelsome.
Needless to say any amount of ammonia in an un-cycled tank, can be deadly.
If your water is hard, with pH 7.5 and above, species from the G braziliensus clade, or the Geo's from west of the Andes like G steindachneri, pellegrini or crassilabris might be better choices, but.....even they can be aggressive in tanks of under 6 feet.

 

[neutrino]

A few potential issues. Your description sounds like you added too many fish at once. Geos need clean water, good oxygen, etc. Especially if the tank was empty for a week, fish should be added gradually to give your beneficial bacteria time to ramp up. In fact, after a week without fish the bacteria colony may have gotten smaller. Even as juveniles, that's a lot of fish for a 55, especially SAs, which don't like to be crowded. Could be the red heads were just the weakest.

I bred and kept them for years and red heads are among the more adaptable geos to pH and hardness, up to 8 pH and moderate hardness doesn't bother them, but they can stress over water quality, low oxygen, or being crowded. Another possibility, with the red heads being the newbies in the tank-- if they tried to be the pushy ones one of the more established fish got tired of it and let them have it.

Overall, though, even at those sizes, that's a lot of SA cichlids to add to a 55, especially if it was done quickly.

 

[WOLF2013]

Most Geo's as adults need at least a 6 ft tank, preferably with sand substrate.
They do best in a group of at least 5 or 6 of their own kind, and most of the northern S American types from Amazonia, prefer soft, lower mineral content water, with pH 7 or lower and very low nitrate (< 5ppm) and highly oxygenated water, with moderate to heavy flow across the length of the tank.
With a low flow, in smaller tanks, and nitrates above 10 ppm, they tend to get HITH, and become quarrelsome.
Needless to say any amount of ammonia in an un-cycled tank, can be deadly.
If your water is hard, with pH 7.5 and above, species from the G braziliensus clade, or the Geo's from west of the Andes like G steindachneri, pellegrini or crassilabris might be better choices, but.....even they can be aggressive in tanks of under 6 feet.

I do have a 125 and 180. I will add sand to them before getting geos!
So I checked my tap water... and boy is it hard!! how do I get it softer like that of most amazonian fish? In Massachusetts the water was perfect for Amazon fish.Are there products that soften water?
I do love the brazillenus geos and redhead geos!

A few potential issues. Your description sounds like you added too many fish at once. Geos need clean water, good oxygen, etc. Especially if the tank was empty for a week, fish should be added gradually to give your beneficial bacteria time to ramp up. In fact, after a week without fish the bacteria colony may have gotten smaller. Even as juveniles, that's a lot of fish for a 55, especially SAs, which don't like to be crowded. Could be the red heads were just the weakest.

I bred and kept them for years and red heads are among the more adaptable geos to pH and hardness, up to 8 pH and moderate hardness doesn't bother them, but they can stress over water quality, low oxygen, or being crowded. Another possibility, with the red heads being the newbies in the tank-- if they tried to be the pushy ones one of the more established fish got tired of it and let them have it.

Overall, though, even at those sizes, that's a lot of SA cichlids to add to a 55, especially if it was done quickly.

Thank you for your help! I think I will let the tank cycle a month before getting new geophagus. Should I add a wave maker to add more oxygen?

 

[jjohnwm]

...The only thing I can think off is maybe the 55 is going through a cycle? I had set it up and used established media and let it run for a week. Then I added fish a week later but I added most at once so maybe it caused a cycle?

...I think I will let the tank cycle a month before getting new geophagus.

How exactly is this tank cycling? A tank sitting empty of fish isn't cycling by magic. In the first instance, you mention adding established media. How much did you use? A small infusion of used gravel or media is a great way to kick-start the bacterial colony that you need; a large enough quantity can create an "instant" cycle depending upon the bioload you introduce. In either case, those bacteria require food. When you add established media to a new aquarium, and then do not add at least some fish, you are literally moving further and further from your goal every day as the bacteria you introduced die off from lack of food. Maybe you were adding pure ammonia? No idea, and no explanation offered.

The second comment...letting the tank cycle a month...is similar. If the tank has no fish or other ammonia source, and just sits there with the filter percolating...you are moving backwards. It takes a lot longer than a month for the bacteria to die off completely, but you are achieving nothing...less than nothing, actually...by sitting there looking at an any empty aquarium shouting "Cycle! Cycle!" at it.

It doesn't matter how long a tank has been established. It will have a bacterial population capable of handing the waste produced by the bioload in the tank. If you suddenly add a huge quantity of new fish, it takes some time for the bacterial population to increase and "catch up" to the new larger bioload. A mini-spike in ammonia is very possible, and should be watched for. Very light feeding after the introduction of more fish is also a step towards minimizing the risk of a spike.

 

[neutrino]

In some of my tanks filter(s) provide enough surface agitation, but I like the wave maker option when they don't, or if I want to add more current. There are a few ways to soften your water (without resorting to an RO system), peat, pouches you can add to filters, driftwood to a lesser degree. It's been years since I messed with intentionally softening my water (aside from whatever driftwood or tannins I have in a tank, anyway), but plenty of people do, so there's a lot of information out there on using peat, etc.

It can take some tinkering to get a happy medium where you want it. If you try something like peat you probably want to start slow. Some people don't like messing with it, so they say it means being a "mad scientist" or "chasing" chemistry and you should only keep fish that match your water. It's just one of those things where people have different opinions. Personally, I never let it stop me when I wanted to keep certain fish.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

In some of my tanks filter(s) provide enough surface agitation, but I like the wave maker option when they don't, or if I want to add more current

I've never had eartheaters, but (for WOLF2013) I can highly recommend the Sicce XStream 8000 for surface agitation and flow.
This is how much agitation one makes on a 1.83m 473 liter.


And the flow is very good too. Stops about halfway to give your fish rest spots, but is quite strong until it stops, and fans out well for a good distribution as well.

 

[jjohnwm]

It can take some tinkering to get a happy medium where you want it. If you try something like peat you probably want to start slow. Some people don't like messing with it, so they say it means being a "mad scientist" or "chasing" chemistry and you should only keep fish that match your water. It's just one of those things where people have different opinions. Personally, I never let it stop me when I wanted to keep certain fish.

Bah! You're mad! Mad, I tell you!

You're right, some people (I'm definitely one of them) don't see the appeal of "chasing" parameters to accommodate specific fish. Aside from the ever-present spectre of the water slipping out of your control and going back to being what it wants to be...it's just a matter of laziness. There are so many fish that I would like to keep...I have limited time/space/money to devote to them...it just seems logical to keep the fish that want to live in the kind of water that I have. If my well provided marine water...I'd have some completely different tank set-ups...

Different strokes...different mad folks...

 

[duanes]

I do have a 125 and 180. I will add sand to them before getting geos!
So I checked my tap water... and boy is it hard!! how do I get it softer like that of most amazonian fish? In Massachusetts the water was perfect for Amazon fish.Are there products that soften water?
I do love the brazillenus geos and redhead geos!

Thank you for your help! I think I will let the tank cycle a month before getting new geophagus. Should I add a wave maker to add more oxygen?

What are the hardness readings? pH?
When keeping "most" Geo's I use a powerhead sending water across the length of the tank, and use the venturi function to add turbulence.

Smaller version below, the port on top draws air from above the surface sending bubbles out with the flow.

There really is not a simple method to soften water for the average aquarist.
RO systems can be utilized, rain water can be useful mixed with tap.
When I lived in WI I also had hard, high pH (almost 8)mineral rich water, and found it wasn't healthy for soft water species.
My alternative was to choose species that came from hard water areas, ie Central America, instead of Amazonia, etc etc
And its not just about softness for Amazonian water, pH in the Amazon is usually 7 and below.
Some of the northern Geophagines also come from black water (stained with tea colored with tannins) which is somewhat anti bacterial.
This can be added by using Rooibos tea, and can help black water species fight off infections.

 

[duanes]

These are a couple great videos on what many Geo's need.
Geophagus - Guide to Amazonian Eartheaters - nearly all Geophagus species !
Geophagus Guide 2 - the new Andes eartheaters + Geophagus pellegrini , steindachneri & crassilabris