Stressed male after very long transport

[Brandon Beck]

Hey guys im seeking some knowledge. Ive imported 3 rays from vietnam to canada 6 days ago. The first leg of the trip was to thailand where they went into a tank for 5 days before making the final journey (i could tell he was stressed from that small trip when I got a video but days later seemed to have calmed down) The trip from thailand to canada took almost 40 hours unfortunately. There water was then changed, re oxygenated and sent on the final leg. From thailand to my house was roughly 60 hours in total.

I did float the bags to temp match and started my acclimation. Bags opened, prime added. I transfered into a bin and started acclimating. Slowly changing water out over the course of 3 hours. I could tell immediately upon opening the bags the male and 1 female were struggling.

I transfered into the tank after acclimating. Made sure I had lots of surface agitation as well as a couple good air stones in there for oxygen exchange. The 1 female relaxed quite quickly when acclimating. The male has been the trouble. Lots of curling and distress the first day. Calmed down on the second day but could tell he was still not settled. Third day I could notice him declining. 1 female was around him quite alot and he was getting very agitated by her. He flipped upside down that night, I helped him back up. He has now been in a floating container for 3 days. Noticeably better. Disc hasn't been curling. He's been getting lots of good rest.

I was advised to add medication to help him recover. Ive held off long enough and gave in today, 25% water change and have added first does of fritz paracleanse. He has been resting mostly all day again. Back corners of his disc held up, so im assuming hes feeling the medication.

He hasn't eaten for me. Been about 10 days now (fasted before shipping). Im really hoping he pulls through but hes been fighting for 6 days now. I dont think there's much else I can do at this point but monitor him and wait it out.

Both females are doing great. They have been feeding well the past 2 days now. Active and great feeding response.

As this was my first time ever dealing with imports like this does anyone have any advice on what you would do differently? I dont think I caused this as the females are doing fine but I can help to feel like there's gotta be something I could of done different.

Appreciate any and all advice. 2 pictures of the male on the first day and then today.

 

[danotaylor]

Sounds like ammonia poisoning. Individual fish can have different responses. In a closed environment, like a bag of water traveling thousands of mile with a big waste producing fish in it, the stress level of each individual fish could produce more or less ammonia.

The temp acclimation w plop & drop method which was suggested by numerous folks when you asked about acclimation is the best way to avoid ammonia poisoning with fish that have travelled from half the earth away. The toxicity of ammonia is less at lower pH. When you expose the water to O2 the pH suddenly rises rapidly increasing the toxicity of ammonia.

Did you do the 5x dosing of prime? Prime does turn ammonia into ammonium until it can be cleared by a biofilter, but the best method is to remove the fish from an ammonia rich environment as quickly as possible.

Any change/increase in your tanks bioload could also result in nitrites in your water, even if undetectable on test, so I would add salt at 1tbsp/5gal to prevent nitrite poisoning.

Glad the other female is doing better. Unfortunately, as far as the male goes, this remains a watch and wait scenario now. He definitely looks better in the last pic. Keep the water pristine. Replace the salt w water changes for the next 2 weeks.

Keep us posted

 

[Brandon Beck]

Sounds like ammonia poisoning. Individual fish can have different responses. In a closed environment, like a bag of water traveling thousands of mile with a big waste producing fish in it, the stress level of each individual fish could produce more or less ammonia.

The temp acclimation w plop & drop method which was suggested by numerous folks when you asked about acclimation is the best way to avoid ammonia poisoning with fish that have travelled from half the earth away.

Did you do the 5x dosing of prime? Prime does turn ammonia into ammonium until it can be cleared by a biofilter, but the best method is to remove the fish from an ammonia rich environment as quickly as possible.

Any change increase in your tanks bioload could also result in nitrites in your water, even if undetectable on test, so I would add salt at 1tbsp/5gal to prevent nitrite poisoning.

Glad the other female is doing better. Unfortunately, as far as the male goes, the reduced disc curling is a good sign, but this remains a watch and wait scenario now. Keep the water prositine. Replace the salt w water changes for the next 2 weeks.

Keep us posted

Yeah thats what I figured was probably ammonia poisoning

It was a toss up on the way to acclimate in this case. The seller wanted a longer acclimation as well so I opted to go that route.

Would I do it differently next time? I think I would opt for the plop and drop method.

I did measure out 5x the prime dose for that exact reasoning. Since I decided to slow acclimate I wanted to try and make sure the ammonia wasn't going to kill them during that time. I also dosed the tank with prime before acclimating.

I have been testing water parameters once a day. Besides some high nitrates which have been resolved I've had 0 ammonia 0 nitrite. But did get a reading of 40ppm nitrates today.

I did add salt on the second day of having them (wednesday) have not topped up salt with any water changes.

Fritz paracleanse was added today after a water change as per the sellers instruction (wanted tetracyline or metro) fritz paracleanse is the best i could get where im at (metro/prazi mix). It does appear to have an effect on the male hes holding his back end of the disc up. It hasn't affected the females they just had another nice meal.

Im wondering if the meds arent the right call.
Water changes and salt are always a nice simple way but being such an expensive piece I am trying to follow the seller as much as I can.

I hope he can pull through.

Let me know what you think of the medication as well if you don't mind. Thanks!!

 

[danotaylor]

No worries brutha mate.

TBH none of those meds will have any measurable effect on ammonia toxicity.

I don’t know the seller, but my job is in healthcare at the high level of hospital acuity. People think meds will fix anything. They’re often prescribed for peace of mind, not because they all work. My thoughts in your current predicament. If it was gill flukes or hex sure, but antibiotics and anti parasitic meds don’t treat ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

Clean well oxygenated water, and lots of it. Keep the salt concentration at 1tbsp/5gal with your water changes over the next 2 weeks.

I hope he pulls through for ya

 

[Brandon Beck]

No worries brutha mate.

TBH none of those meds will have any measurable effect on ammonia toxicity.

I don’t know the seller, but my job is in healthcare at the high level of hospital acuity. People think meds will fix anything. They’re often prescribed for peace of mind, not because they all work. My thoughts in your current predicament. If it was gill flukes or hex sure, but antibiotics and anti parasitic meds don’t treat ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

Clean well oxygenated water, and lots of it. Keep the salt concentration at 1tbsp/5gal with your water changes over the next 2 weeks.

I hope he pulls through for ya

Yeah exactly, that was my thought. I dont visibly see a sick ray. He looks completely perfect. No bloat or anything. Cleaning disc.

What i am suprised with was his Underside was nice and white, and no red mouth since day 1. I figured if it was ammonia poisoning it would be fairly visible on his Underside but I could be wrong.

What sort of water changes do you do with such a stressed ray? I usually do much larger water changes but been sticking to around 20%. Do you add salt based on how much water you change then as well?

 

[danotaylor]

I would try to dial in your water changes to keep your nitrates <20 for sure, 10 preferably. They will acclimated to your ph by now, so subtle fluctuations in ph w large changes will be no problem. When I had 4 rays in a 500gal tank I did weekly water changes of 400gal in one exchange.

For now 1 way to reduce your bioload is to limit big feeds for the other 2. I had a BD male 14" hunger strike for 6 weeks. He lost a little conditioning, but once was broken to other foods, reconditioned easily. The girls will be fine with light feeding for a few weeks.

If you dose the tank w salt, then use the same concentrations based on your gallons of water changed. IE if you change 100gal daily, redose w 20 tbsp to maintain the concentration.

 

[Brandon Beck]

I would try to dial in your water changes to keep your nitrates <20 for sure, 10 preferably. They will acclimated to your ph by now, so subtle fluctuations in ph w large changes will be no problem. When I had 4 rays in a 500gal tank I did weekly water changes of 400gal in one exchange.

For now 1 way to reduce your bioload is to limit big feeds for the other 2. I had a BD male 14" hunger strike for 6 weeks. He lost a little conditioning, but once was broken to other foods, reconditioned easily. The girls will be fine with light feeding for a few weeks.

If you dose the tank w salt, then use the same concentrations based on your gallons of water changed. IE if you change 100gal daily, redose w 20 tbsp to maintain the concentration.

Yeah I got them down to 20ppm yesterday before starting the meds... he still is the same this morning. Perked up in the back.

Offered him a small piece of worm. He reacts to it but not in a good way. Hes definitely not worried about eating. Its crazy how long they can go without food.

I might just do a water change and stop the meds today. He seemed more comfortable before.

 

[danotaylor]

When I first fed my guys live worms they would freak out when they swan over it. Electromagnetic stimulation maybe

 

[Brandon Beck]

When I first fed my guys live worms they would freak out when they swan over it. Electromagnetic stimulation maybe

That's interesting. I cant say I've ever had a ray freak out over a worm haha. Learn something new everyday.

Did a water change this morning and added carbon in the canisters. Hes already looking more relaxed. Ill do another 25% water change tonight

 

[phreeflow]

When your fish arrived struggling in dirty water, that was the best time to temp acclimate and quickly dump them into clean water. A slow acclimation would be better suited for fish that came in healthier.

That also goes for medication. It’s taxing on the kidneys and liver so unless absolutely necessary, i would not have caused extra stress on an already struggling fish by medicating in that state.

I would just do constant and consistent water changes and maybe try bloodworms until it starts to recover and eat other foods