$125 TSN from Exotic Fish Shop

thebiggerthebetter

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https://exoticfishshop.net/product/tiger-shovelnose-catfish-2/

I surmise by the price it must be wild caught, even though the price is steep for one, but this fella is a bit bigger 6"-7".

I don't believe we can tell the species but if I had to guess, it looks within the realm of the usual fasciatum, just with clean stripes for now...

Thoughts? wednesday13 wednesday13 H HELIOX

Could it be the usual farm cull or a poorly raised one from SE Asia, which have inundated our trade?

exoticfishshop.com-tiger-shovelnose-02.jpgexoticfishshop.com-tiger-shovelnose-03.jpgexoticfishshop.com-tiger-shovelnose-06.jpg
 
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thebiggerthebetter

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Spoke with Steve about it. He says it is captive raised from SE Asia, a generic TSN he calls it, doesn't know the species (sounds like doesn't want to know), so I must assume this is the same TSN that go for $15 at 2"-3" at most US fish shops. This one is 6"-7".

I asked about the size of the parents. He says doesn't know, doesn't get this info.

I said I am on a lookout for wild caught TSN. He says he gets them in regularly, a few times a year from South America of course.

I said how does he know they are w/c and not culled from farms?

He said verbatim: "South America has no grow out area everything from those areas are wild period. They catch and ship no farms there."

Me: "In all of South America?"

Steve: "Yes. Indo Thailand Asia are the exotic farms."

I typed a long text saying that there may not be ornamental fish farms in SA but we know for a fact there are food fish farms in SA, farming TSN, RTC, TSNxRTC, TSNxachara, etc.

Steve: "My exporters are collector only from South America."

After that we have, respectfully, remained at our disagreement: He says if he labels a TSN w/c, it is w/c, period. I say he has no way of verifying that other than trust his exporter in SA that the exporter is not cheating him.

__________________________________________________________________________


Whatcha ya'll think gang?

Why ALL our TSN look the same (supposedly fasciatum-ish) and grow the same small (24"-30") and slow (2 years or longer to 2 feet) versus expectations?

Why go fish for TSN babies in the Amazon when there are millions of culls readily available almost for the asking and no one can prove the origin or the difference? Plus it skyrockets the profits: the cost of getting TSN babies from the wild is probably 10x-100x higher versus the farm refuse culls while the US importers pay the same ~$5 each.

With all due respect to Steve and other vendors defending their w/c TSN sources, I don't trust their SA collaborators.

F fugupuff Would be nice to hear your thoughts, Wes.
 

Dloks

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Spoke with Steve about it. He says it is captive raised from SE Asia, a generic TSN he calls it, doesn't know the species (sounds like doesn't want to know), so I must assume this is the same TSN that go for $15 at 2"-3" at most US fish shops. This one is 6"-7".

I asked about the size of the parents. He says doesn't know, doesn't get this info.

I said I am on a lookout for wild caught TSN. He says he gets them in regularly, a few times a year from South America of course.

I said how does he know they are w/c and not culled from farms?

He said verbatim: "South America has no grow out area everything from those areas are wild period. They catch and ship no farms there."

Me: "In all of South America?"

Steve: "Yes. Indo Thailand Asia are the exotic farms."

I typed a long text saying that there may not be ornamental fish farms in SA but we know for a fact there are food fish farms in SA, farming TSN, RTC, TSNxRTC, TSNxachara, etc.

Steve: "My exporters are collector only from South America."

After that we have, respectfully, remained at our disagreement: He says if he labels a TSN w/c, it is w/c, period. I say he has no way of verifying that other than trust his exporter in SA that the exporter is not cheating him.

__________________________________________________________________________


Whatcha ya'll think gang?

Why ALL our TSN look the same (supposedly fasciatum-ish) and grow the same small (24"-30") and slow (2 years or longer to 2 feet) versus expectations?

Why go fish for TSN babies in the Amazon when there are millions of culls readily available almost for the asking and no one can prove the origin or the difference? Plus it skyrockets the profits: the cost of getting TSN babies from the wild is probably 10x-100x higher versus the farm refuse culls while the US importers pay the same ~$5 each.

With all due respect to Steve and other vendors defending their w/c TSN sources, I don't trust their SA collaborators.

F fugupuff Would be nice to hear your thoughts, Wes.
Sounds like you can tell him a cats a cat but he believe it’s a dog he’ll call it that. I’ve ordered from him before. Wouldn’t do it again. He has pretty high prices and no real source.
 
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adamsfishes

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You can never be certain unless you personally collected a fish or know the person who did. Not sure it's fair to single out one shop owner like this.
 

wednesday13

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I'll come outta hiding for ya Viktor...been a while now... was actually looking at one of those tsn from exotic about a week ago that looked a bit odd/different to me also priced at $125 resembling p. tigrinum....its not the one u pictured tho it may have sold. These days i would trust Wes himself for any valid w/c tsn although i do believe some may still make it through the cracks so to speak from other unknowing vendors. With the dwindling vendors and market, im sure theyll tell you anything to make a buck. We've known for yrs. South America/Brazil is big on aquaculture for food production. In doing so i believe theyve somewhat ruined the wild gene pools as a majority of the farms are in the rivers themselves or in close proximity leading to all kinds of "man made" fish making their way into the wild. I havent seen much diversity in tsn sp. being caught by anglers either in recent yrs.

As always, can never solely go by pattern....always about the head shapes. Ive seen a few p. tigrinum pop up now and again over the past few yrs. but thats about it. Easy to spot with their elongated "duck bill", bit lighter coloration and larger head comparing to p. fasciatum.


Its hard not to be fooled these days tho...we first saw alot of these "watered down" fasciatum from vince with exceptional looking patterns or diff. from the norm patterns that make you stop and think maybe its different. i believe its just the genes being watered down so much the usual traits are harder to spot.

proof of everything being farmed is the availability of more albinos/color morphs. Just saw some true albino rtc today and also albino tsn... First saw pics of true w/c tsn albinos back in the early 2000's. they look nothing like what im seeing now. 1 in a million mutation vs. man made/line bred mutation.

a good, more recent comparison to the tsn ordeal/debate is all the cichla species. there basically all farmie junk now unless you get wild caught. have a buddy whos had a very hard time getting "real" wild caught bass of any species. vendors swear till there blue in the face there wild caught and it may not be their fault as ur saying also. suppliers arent stupid. y go collect fish when theres a plethera available from farms in more than one part of the world now.

Sadly, in conclusion... were lucky to get anything these days... its a tough dwindling market for vendors battling new laws and a new generation of people opposed to keeping animals all together. Were a dying breed Vik. If you want a "real" tsn... itd come from the argentina area and have spots ;). im surprised they were never really available considering p. corruscans are found in the same cooler waters as dorado and p. caribe piranah and those are dime a dozen in the hobby.
 

ZIPLOCKEDBRZ

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I just bought a 2" "TSN" from EFS about a month ago, his skin was still transparent when i got him. Now after a few weeks he has grown probably 2-3" and im starting to think it may be a hybrid... but it could be that his stripes just arent as prominent yet. I have no pics currently but reading this added to my curiosity.
 

Fishman Dave

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TSN don't start life striped so don't worry.

As for the debate on TSN. Don't think anyone will ever solve it. If we bought a real wild TSN and he died at 2ft, we would all claim he was a farm cull. Yet if we bought a farm cull and he made it to 4ft, we would think he was wild caught. Might be that every TSN we have all ever had were all wild caught ( highly improbable I know) but they might not take to captivity. That said, I might want to think of trying to breed the two at my local butterfly zoo, they are easily over 3.5ft.
like the colouring and shape of the pictured fish tho, although put him in something other than a bright blue tank and your dollars might not look so well spent.
 

wednesday13

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TSN don't start life striped so don't worry.

As for the debate on TSN. Don't think anyone will ever solve it. If we bought a real wild TSN and he died at 2ft, we would all claim he was a farm cull. Yet if we bought a farm cull and he made it to 4ft, we would think he was wild caught. Might be that every TSN we have all ever had were all wild caught ( highly improbable I know) but they might not take to captivity. That said, I might want to think of trying to breed the two at my local butterfly zoo, they are easily over 3.5ft.
like the colouring and shape of the pictured fish tho, although put him in something other than a bright blue tank and your dollars might not look so well spent.

I dont believe in the "farmies" having shorter life spans even tho they may carry watered down genes... i kept one in house for a solid 8yrs from 18-20" to 34"....this fish in particular is still alive at a close friends house/rescue and is around 10yrs old now still at 34"... kept a half dozen others alive for 5-6+ yrs also sizes ranging from 20"-28". Far too often people look for "scientific" or "genetic" reasons y their fish die. IMO it comes down to the most basic knowledge of fish keeping i.e. water matinence. "run of the mills" like tsn,rtc,hybrids, most cichlids can handle high nitrates and stress from water changes pretty well for an extended period of time, many yrs even. When u get into keeping more tempermental species like "show cats" (tigs,goonch,jurs for ex.) or rays you soon come to realise nitrates over 10ppm. or even stress from a water change can and will kill ur fish immediatly. Consistency in ur system and low stress is what keeps ur fish alive. U can have a 10kgal tank with crap water and high stress levels that becomes a death sentence for any tempermental fish, even catfish. Size or water volume doesnt always make a difference. If i have a fish i truely care about its kept alone and on an autodrip system. no stress from tank mates, no stress from water changes, no nitrates over 10ppm or problems arise.

If more people went back to square 1 when a fish dies and check their water/system rather than just replacing it or looking for a scientific reason y it died thered be more long lived tsn and other commonly kept fish out there. For my tsn at 10yrs old now...it never saw an autodripped tank with me, was moved around countless times, lived in pretty deplorable high stress conditions of my "early yrs" and its still kickin. really shows how tough some fish can be...even farm bred.
 

thebiggerthebetter

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Appreciate the feedback, guys, esp. Wednesday, of course. Will address Wed and Dave later when there is time.

Sounds like you can tell him a cats a cat but he believe it’s a dog he’ll call it that. I’ve ordered from him before. Wouldn’t do it again. He has pretty high prices and no real source.
Sorry to hear, bro. I had bought from Steve a few times before, including our two arapaima. I was satisfied. His prices are high indeed but sometimes one can find a good deal with Steve. It'd be an exception though, I agree. IDK what "no real source" means.

You can never be certain unless you personally collected a fish or know the person who did. Not sure it's fair to single out one shop owner like this.
That's one of my thoughts. Thank you. As for the singling out, I tried to state my words cautiously. Perhaps I failed. I was speaking of the general situation with pretty much all TSN and pretty much all vendors in our trade and was using this case only as a convenient and ongoing example. I aimed to not say anything damaging about Steve coming from me.
 

GiantFishKeeper101

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Sadly, in conclusion... were lucky to get anything these days... its a tough dwindling market for vendors battling new laws and a new generation of people opposed to keeping animals all together. Were a dying breed Vik. If you want a "real" tsn... itd come from the argentina area and have spots ;). im surprised they were never really available considering p. corruscans are found in the same cooler waters as dorado and p. caribe piranah and those are dime a dozen in the hobby.
Corruscans are well protected, that's why it is rare to see it in the hobby, Argentina & Brazil. It would seem that the only state that allows protected species be shipped are Peru.

But they do have farm hybrid of P. reticulatum with P. corruscans, plenty in fishing ponds in SA under the name of Pincachara. They don't enter pet trading as it purely for food industry. They also have pure bred corruscans in farms but I still have no idea why importer can't get those farm version, it supposedly CITES free.
 
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