540 filtration opinions
- Thread starter specialized002
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DB, I believe you that your Darts draw 150 watts. That number is worthless unless you know flow at various levels of total dynamic head.
You can't talk about the efficiency of a pump unless you know the flow you are achieving or can point to a flow chart. You cannot compare your pumps efficiency to Lagunas, Evos or anything else unless you know flow at different head heights. That's why I have to call it out because your claims are totally off base without knowing GPH rates.
In regards to the pumps being "hybrids," all that means is that they are sold with two impellers. In reality, any Reeflo can be considered a hybrid...you just buy an impeller from a different model and viola, hybrid pump.
BTW, cars are in fact more reliable than they were 10 years ago, and definitely more reliable than they were 20 or 30 years ago.
I'm not going to argue either. I'm just stating facts.
You can't talk about the efficiency of a pump unless you know the flow you are achieving or can point to a flow chart. You cannot compare your pumps efficiency to Lagunas, Evos or anything else unless you know flow at different head heights. That's why I have to call it out because your claims are totally off base without knowing GPH rates.
In regards to the pumps being "hybrids," all that means is that they are sold with two impellers. In reality, any Reeflo can be considered a hybrid...you just buy an impeller from a different model and viola, hybrid pump.
BTW, cars are in fact more reliable than they were 10 years ago, and definitely more reliable than they were 20 or 30 years ago.
I'm not going to argue either. I'm just stating facts.
Really? Stating facts? How long have you been fixing cars Alex? You work for an independent or a dealer? Or are you not speaking facts? I've been under them in dealers for 15+ years now. I KNOW how cheap new stuff is, I make a friggin living fixing it.
Tell me how you measure your Lagunas and I'll do the same with my Reeflos. Don't tell me you just use flow charts cause we all know those are useless as everyone's installation is different. What kind of flow meters are you using? I'll get the same.
I'm sick of going back and forth with you. You want me be a fellow Laguna fan boy then lets get this figured out so I can jump on the bandwagon. They must just be awesome cause I've never seen anyone go to so much trouble to defend them and "call out" people cause they use something else. I mean you really put forth a lot of effort, cause I know every time pumps get brought up you start your "call outs". I'm really looking forward to being enlightened on the "fact" that Laguna is the greatest pump ever made.
This makes zero sense to me.
I'm out.......
Buy Lagunas and have Aldiaz help you with the filter.
Best of luck on the build.
Easy DB, I don't know which route to go... In a perfect world I would have an external with another one sitting on the shelf in case that one craps out. Of all the fishtanks I have had I have never had a backup pump or one laying around in case it went bad. I guess I never gave it much thought, I know that happens and that's why it has taken me so long to get this whole thing figured out. Just trying to make sure I get the right stuff and it's going to be failsafe, everyone's help is much appreciated and there's no reason to get upset over it. Please continue with your comments and opinions!
DB, first off, I apologize if I ticked you off.
I think Specialized may be referring to the fact that Reeflos are essentially double the cost of a Laguna with the closest specs. I ran into the same predicament. I could spend ~$800 for two Reeflos, or I could spend ~$400 for two Lagunas. I am referring to new pumps...I know you got a good deal on your Darts, since you bought them used.
I'm not sure why you would question flow charts as the standard method of comparing a pump's efficiency. It's the industry standard for good reason. A pump can't tell the difference between head pressure created by vertical head versus head pressure created by undersizing your plumbing (frictional head pressure); therefore, flow charts that show flow at various levels of head in relation to power consumption are the best way to compare a pumps efficiency.
I've tried to find a flow chart for your older model Dart, but I can't find it anywhere. But I think that's irrelevant/moot because finding the actual pumps will probably be even harder to do. So that leaves us to talk about pumps that Specialized can actually get his hands on. I have laid out the numbers in my previous posts and the Lagunas outperform the Reeflos in regards to efficiency and they do so with a significantly lower price tag...with the added bonus of adding a little heat to his system that would otherwise be lost to the air if using external pumps.
There are plenty of situations where I would recommend a Reeflo over a Laguna (i.e.- any system with TDH of >10' or a system that you did not want to add heat to the water), but given this particular setup, I would suggest Lagunas. The numbers are what they are, but I understand that people have their own preferences/opinions.
I would hope that my posts wouldn't prevent you from sharing your expertise with Specialized in regards to Radial Flow Separators. I have never run one and I don't know the first thing about them.
...not sure why someone's decision to go with submersible (more affordable) pumps would preclude you from helping them out with their filtration.
I think Specialized may be referring to the fact that Reeflos are essentially double the cost of a Laguna with the closest specs. I ran into the same predicament. I could spend ~$800 for two Reeflos, or I could spend ~$400 for two Lagunas. I am referring to new pumps...I know you got a good deal on your Darts, since you bought them used.
I'm not sure why you would question flow charts as the standard method of comparing a pump's efficiency. It's the industry standard for good reason. A pump can't tell the difference between head pressure created by vertical head versus head pressure created by undersizing your plumbing (frictional head pressure); therefore, flow charts that show flow at various levels of head in relation to power consumption are the best way to compare a pumps efficiency.
I've tried to find a flow chart for your older model Dart, but I can't find it anywhere. But I think that's irrelevant/moot because finding the actual pumps will probably be even harder to do. So that leaves us to talk about pumps that Specialized can actually get his hands on. I have laid out the numbers in my previous posts and the Lagunas outperform the Reeflos in regards to efficiency and they do so with a significantly lower price tag...with the added bonus of adding a little heat to his system that would otherwise be lost to the air if using external pumps.
There are plenty of situations where I would recommend a Reeflo over a Laguna (i.e.- any system with TDH of >10' or a system that you did not want to add heat to the water), but given this particular setup, I would suggest Lagunas. The numbers are what they are, but I understand that people have their own preferences/opinions.
I would hope that my posts wouldn't prevent you from sharing your expertise with Specialized in regards to Radial Flow Separators. I have never run one and I don't know the first thing about them.
...not sure why someone's decision to go with submersible (more affordable) pumps would preclude you from helping them out with their filtration.
I think you're only ever going to get generalities when it comes to trying to accurately peg pump performance. I say this because I was talking to a Reeflo tech when I was rerouting my pumps upstairs into the most inefficient setup you can imagine. At the time, I had two Darts instead of two Hammerheads... and the guy was really cool working with me.. literally having me break every inch of the setup down... how many inches of verticals into how many inches of horizontals, factoring each bend, ect, until he was able to draw my exact setup with out seeing a picture of it.
Anyways.. when he was done he reached the conclusion that I had surpassed the capable head capacity of the pumps by a lot.. don't remember exactly but it was around 10 feet or more. Then I pointed out to him that water was still flowing... at least 500-700gph.. he didn't have an explanation for it. BTW- I had the two different Darts as well.. the American Belcor and the other one was much smaller... on similar parallel plumbing runs... they were both running about the same even though the calculated head showed that they shouldn't be still moving water. (the Belcor did run cooler)
So I wouldn't be surprised if there are many variations for many reasons on this stuff.
Anyways.. when he was done he reached the conclusion that I had surpassed the capable head capacity of the pumps by a lot.. don't remember exactly but it was around 10 feet or more. Then I pointed out to him that water was still flowing... at least 500-700gph.. he didn't have an explanation for it. BTW- I had the two different Darts as well.. the American Belcor and the other one was much smaller... on similar parallel plumbing runs... they were both running about the same even though the calculated head showed that they shouldn't be still moving water. (the Belcor did run cooler)
So I wouldn't be surprised if there are many variations for many reasons on this stuff.
The fact that I have no issue with buying a used Dart should speak volume about the quality they're built with. What is the worst that's ever going to happen? They need a seal - easy fix. I run 7 external pumps, all bought used and the only seal to leak took 9 years to start leaking. Some were even bought for less then $100. How many have died? NONE. I have a tote full of junk submersibles, not only do the impellers go bad but the friggin things leak and when that happens not only do the chords rot off but they leech ac voltage. All that combines with the fact that they only last a year or 2 in hard water and require maintenance the whole time and results in me not caring what the flow rates are, I spend lots of money on fish and can't justify relying on unreliable stuff to keep them alive. Reliability trumps efficiency.
I'm done knit picking flow rates. Aquatic Eco sells flow meters for $60. Next time I order I'll grab one. Aldiaz can get one too and we can throw reliability out the window and see just how efficient some of the different pumps are. Then we can knit pick pluming. IF the Reeflos suck I'll be the first to admit it, and I'll be fine with it, cause like I said, I will NOT sacrifice reliability for efficiency. IF I kept a tank full of ma and pa stuff or a bunch of Cichlids I probably wouldn't care about reliability but rays are really expensive and very demanding in terms of equipment reliability. I think with pumps there's cheap, efficient, and reliable. You can pick 2 out of the 3, but you won't get all 3 in the same unit.
I will NOT trust manufacturers specs. They are unregulated. I'll trust tested numbers. You could have one manufacturer that skews numbers while another under rates. Those charts aren't straight across the board or they would be regulated.
The Darts I run are for the motor. NOT the impeller. As you mentioned - kind of hard to find specs for them. There's a reason for that, I sought out what I felt were the best pumps I could afford. Most Darts are AO Smith motors, most of the rest are Emerson, not many Darts out there with Baldor Motors. Dolphin uses Baldor, but when priced against Reeflos they're quite a bit more. I wonder why?
All this stupid pump bickering is irrelevant. Why? Cause I really don't think this system will restart after a power cut regardless of which kind of or how many pumps there are. I think there needs to be more of a sump then 2/3 a 55 gallon drum.... That's what we should be focusing on here if we want to help. Keep in mind the actual "sump" is only the last chamber. Even ran 1/3 full only allows for like what? 40 gallons of water to drain from the tank and previous 2 55 gallons drums,]BUT if you're running a drip, the drain needs to be in that 3 rd chamber to dictate water level in the sump anything over that level drains. Once down the drain that water would need to be replaced before the system will restart.
Less pump bickering - more how do we get this thing to restart without baby sitting.... (having to manually add water to keep the pump from running dry on restart)
We can bicker about pumps after we both have flow meters.
I'm done knit picking flow rates. Aquatic Eco sells flow meters for $60. Next time I order I'll grab one. Aldiaz can get one too and we can throw reliability out the window and see just how efficient some of the different pumps are. Then we can knit pick pluming. IF the Reeflos suck I'll be the first to admit it, and I'll be fine with it, cause like I said, I will NOT sacrifice reliability for efficiency. IF I kept a tank full of ma and pa stuff or a bunch of Cichlids I probably wouldn't care about reliability but rays are really expensive and very demanding in terms of equipment reliability. I think with pumps there's cheap, efficient, and reliable. You can pick 2 out of the 3, but you won't get all 3 in the same unit.
I will NOT trust manufacturers specs. They are unregulated. I'll trust tested numbers. You could have one manufacturer that skews numbers while another under rates. Those charts aren't straight across the board or they would be regulated.
The Darts I run are for the motor. NOT the impeller. As you mentioned - kind of hard to find specs for them. There's a reason for that, I sought out what I felt were the best pumps I could afford. Most Darts are AO Smith motors, most of the rest are Emerson, not many Darts out there with Baldor Motors. Dolphin uses Baldor, but when priced against Reeflos they're quite a bit more. I wonder why?
All this stupid pump bickering is irrelevant. Why? Cause I really don't think this system will restart after a power cut regardless of which kind of or how many pumps there are. I think there needs to be more of a sump then 2/3 a 55 gallon drum.... That's what we should be focusing on here if we want to help. Keep in mind the actual "sump" is only the last chamber. Even ran 1/3 full only allows for like what? 40 gallons of water to drain from the tank and previous 2 55 gallons drums,]BUT if you're running a drip, the drain needs to be in that 3 rd chamber to dictate water level in the sump anything over that level drains. Once down the drain that water would need to be replaced before the system will restart.
Less pump bickering - more how do we get this thing to restart without baby sitting.... (having to manually add water to keep the pump from running dry on restart)
We can bicker about pumps after we both have flow meters.
The only reason I wanted to go with drums was that I was taking after what Joey built in his large aquarium build. Should I still run the barrels but have the 3rd one a tank? I would like to keep the RFS and k1 chambers, what would be the best way to set this up? Do all auto change systems require water to be added upon power comming back on? Thanks for comming back to the party DB!
