A quick Q about cycling and nitrate

[Toby_H]

may not be common but fishless cycle on my 125g with very little old media took 13 days.

The point is, you seeded your 125 gal with bacteria from an established/mature tank...

Seeding a tank removes the stage where we just kinda sit and wait... it also allows the NOB (Nitritye Oxidizing Bacteria) colony to expand from day one, where a fishless cycling without seeding makes you wait a 7~10 days for the AOB (Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria) to produce nitrites.

 

[dawnmarie]

even if your tank isnt cycled its very easy to add fish and ammonia and nitrite levels at a safe level.

I don't understand this at all. Is there a "safe" level of ammonia or Nitrite allowable in an inhabited tank ? My understanding is if either is present an immediate water change(s) is called for.

 

[dawnmarie]

I used this Fishless cycling method (see alternate method) on my 240 with no other products
http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm
I measured ammonia on day 1.
I measured Nitrite and Nitrate on day 3.
Ammonia peaked on day 5
Ammonia crashed to 0ppm on day 7
Nitrite peaked on day 11
Nitrite crashed to 0ppm on day 20
80% water change on day 21
Introduced 60 2" Cichlids on day 30
Have had no cycling problems since.
All of the above follows the chart that is part of the link. Keep in mind the chart is drawn for conventional Fishless Cycling and the alternate method listed speeds this up proportionately.

I did nothing other than follow the instructions to the letter.
I reached chart day 40 in 20 actual days.
NC, do you suppose this is an isolated incident ?

 

[Toby_H]

I don't understand this at all. Is there a "safe" level of ammonia or Nitrite allowable in an inhabited tank ? My understanding is if either is present an immediate water change(s) is called for.

In Mos90's defense, in that same paragraph you quoted from he did also mention that daily water changes may be needed. In the following paragraph he also suggested using .25 ppm as an 'acceptibple maximum' for ammonia and/or nitrite.

even if your tank isnt cycled its very easy to add fish and ammonia and nitrite levels at a safe level. daily testing is important and waterchanges may be necessary everyday. prime does a great job of detoxifing ammo and nitrite.

While I agree with what DawnMarie is suggesting that 0ppm ammonia & nitrite are our targets... I also agree that .25 ppm is a responsible maximum in the rare situations where we have disturbed the biological filtration on an aquarium...


But for the purposes of the Author of this thread... since there are no fish (except for a couple Platies) in the aquarium... but the aquarium has been adequately seeded with both types of bacteria (AOB & NOB)... the fastest way to make it ready for a full stock of Cichlids would be to add ammonia directly using the concepts of a fishless cycle...

 

[sunshinehippy]

But for the purposes of the Author of this thread... since there are no fish (except for a couple Platies) in the aquarium... but the aquarium has been adequately seeded with both types of bacteria (AOB & NOB)... the fastest way to make it ready for a full stock of Cichlids would be to add ammonia directly using the concepts of a fishless cycle...

Ah, but I do not intend to add a full stock of cichlids straight away, I am happy to add 1 or 2 small ones every 2 weeks or so.

I cycled my 92G using the method I used on this tank but instead I immediately added 3 female Congo Tetras, followed by 3 more males a week later. I have had no deaths at all in this tank and all fish are happy and healthy. The only problems I got was when I brought in disease from the LFS but I soon sorted out those problems. I have never ever had ammonia in this tank from day one, so this must be living proof that the method of seeding does work, as long as you don't just chuck a whole load of fish in at once. I gradually built up my stock, adding 1 fish every 2-4 weeks.

 

[sunshinehippy]

Bob965 makes an excellent point about fishless cycling.
I guess I don't understand the concept of intentionally putting fish in the potentially stressful conditions present in a partially cycled tank.It seems a little cruel, but that's just me.

I agree that putting fish into an "uncycled" tank is cruel but my filter will already have enough bacteria to support these 2 tiny platies.

 

[Toby_H]

NC, do you suppose this is an isolated incident ?

Let's be cautious not to get to far into a tangent on someone elses thread... but...

I think the chart you included is a decent overview of the fishless cycling process but I do see some discrepencies in it's numbers...

That chart suggests it's going to take me (or you) 10 days for the ammonia to spike at 12 ppm (or mg/l)... when in all reality there is no reason I (or you) couldn't simply dose the tank to 12 ppm on day one... Although I do not recommend ever letting the ammonia get nearly that high even in a fishless cycle (high ammonia concentrations are harmful, even lethal, to ammonia oxidizing bacteria).

Also, the timeframe they suggest for both ammonia & nitrite to "crash" is much longer than I have experienced. It is suggesting 5 days for ammonia and 7 days for nitrite. But in my experience they both will 'crash' in 24~48 hours pending details.

One thing to keep in mind regarding fishless cycling, is there are two stages where we are sitting around waiting for a type of bacteria to "magically appear" in our tank. Well of course it doesn't "magically appear", in reality it is common in every environment and we are waiting for some to happen to float aroudn our house and land in our tank.

So it would be logical to believe that in warm weather when the windows are open, a tank will likely cycle a bit fasteras this bacteria is quite common in our the environment around our house. And on the contrary a tank is likely to cycle a little slower in the months where the house is closed up and outside air is run through a filter prior to being pushed into the house.


Also, since we are discussing it, I hear people all the time suggest they will "crank up the heat" in a tank to make it cycle faster. The bacterial species we rely on thrive between 75~85*F So typical temperatures for Cichlids work just fine and "hotter is better" is not an accurate perception.


I'm not sure if this applies to your situation, but it may be possible that bacteria will "grow" faster in a wet dry type situation than in submerged mediums. I do not know this to be true, but think it might be possible...

 

[Toby_H]

Ah, but I do not intend to add a full stock of cichlids straight away, I am happy to add 1 or 2 small ones every 2 weeks or so.

I cycled my 92G using the method I used on this tank but instead I immediately added 3 female Congo Tetras, followed by 3 more males a week later. I have had no deaths at all in this tank and all fish are happy and healthy. The only problems I got was when I brought in disease from the LFS but I soon sorted out those problems. I have never ever had ammonia in this tank from day one, so this must be living proof that the method of seeding does work, as long as you don't just chuck a whole load of fish in at once. I gradually built up my stock, adding 1 fish every 2-4 weeks.

Sounds to me like you are in good shape then SunShineHippy.

There is no question that seeding a new tank will speed the cycling process along adn can even "instantly cycle" a tank pending details...

Since you already have both types of bacteria in the system, it's just a matter of adding fish at a slow enough pace to allow the bacteria colony to grow each time you add fish.

The only suggestion I could make that you haven't already covered yourself is I would do a water change two days after you add new fish each time. This will help keep your ammonia/nitrite under that .25ppm sugested maximum mentioned earlier.

I've started literally dozens of tanks over the years simply by taking filters off of mature tanks and putting them on a brand new set up and lightly stocking it. A large water change two days later and I'm all set.

 

[scrup]

Nitrates should only be worried about if you have particularly sensitive fish, or if they are over 50ppm IMO. Is your other tank planted by chance? My tanks that are heavily planted never get above 10PPM nitrates...

Plants are no replacement for water changes, but they keep the nitrates down.

And definitely get a nitrite test kit. Out of the three the nitrate kit would be the last one I would look to or worry about.