A rant

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
pops said:
:ROFL: do as you will, "your tank, your fish" :)
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Could I ask why you are laughing? Denitrifying bacteria is really impressive and leads to an easier hobby.


petspoiler said:
I've never been impressed with bio balls. but, have you ever used seachem matrix media, to know how it compares with this product? deep porosity supports some denitrification. the only diff I read about this media is "trace minerals have been added to enhance the media’s'ability to support beneficial bacteria growth", Seems like those will deplete over time, then does new media have to be rotated back in?
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I have had the pleasure of talking to you in a thread about cleaning canister filters if you remember! I've kept my canister running for over a year and kept nitrates at around 15-20ppm but my 220g has been giving me problems with nitrates peaking at around 80 on a weekly basis. Along with weekly 90% water changes, purigen, and rid-x I could only get nitrates down to around 40ppm which was still pretty bad. I looked for a solution and then the in depth nitrogen researched began haha! Currently I've used biohome for 2 months and each month nitrates have gone down around 5-10ppm. I'm currently at 25-30ppm of nitrate while still using rid-x monthly along with purigen in the canister.

Matrix is great but its simply not worth the money imo. From my experiences and knowledge its just simple pumice stone. I got a 20 pound bag of pumice from my local rock yard for around 8 dollars which is a tiny fraction of what seachem charges. It has the same bouncy, texture, and also weight. Seachem obviously wont say that its simple pumice as they sell so much at such a high premium but also do not deny it. Seachem basically states that they can charge such a high price because they guaranty that all impurities are removed which I believe is a bunch of baloney, its probably screened through a metal detector and rinsed off! But pumice or maxtrix is good stuff but I personally have high hopes and favor the BioHome ultimate media over it. I've have has some denitrifying bacteria form but its a minimal amount.

From my experience ceramic media such as fluval's bio-MAX only gets denitrifying bacteria when it becomes clogged on the inside resulting in two layers of compounds. The center which is dense will support denitrifying which is anaerobic while the outside supports aerobic bacteria which takes care of ammonia and nitrite producing the nitrate. The Biohome when broke in half has a different inner material which is grey that is a denser material which in return is dense enough to support denitrifying bacteria. Makes sense as though some digging online substrate that has a depth of 5 inches or more will support a decent amount of denitrifying bacteria. Its the dense media that supports denitrifying in my opinion from what I have read and from my experiences.

The trace minerals should decay over time but I believe its just an added benefit to start the colony as the hardest part is to get the denitrifying bacteria started. Once its started I believe it will sustain itself as long as there's a food source which is the nitrate. Sorry I got a little carried away haha but my weekly tests/monthly comparisons are showing that reducing areobic bacteria such as my trickle filter with my bio balls results in lower nitrates through denitrifying bacteria through Biohome media. I'm planning on not treating this 220g tank with rid-x in the future and maintaining a 10-20ppm of nitrate with bi weekly 20% water changes!
 
I don't think he is laughing at you... :)
I think it was someone else's super aggressive-defensive post he's laughing at...
 
nope am not laughing at you, as stated do as you or any one will. I am not a dis-respectful individual. if I offended you I am sorry. perhaps to get the mind straight you can take a look at what does put things into perspective for me. Because we perceive it this way. does not make it right.
http://www.askamathematician.com/2011/07/q-does-light-experience-time/
 
Nitrate is a chemical indicator species, and high nitrate is telling of water degradation, but not the only reason we do water changes.
High nitrate indicates a condition where pathogenic species of bacteria, low water quality preferring algae and other phages find hospitable, and where normally non-pathogenic bacteria species become a problem.
As a former water chemist/microbiologist we use nitrate, and the indicator bacteria species coliforms, to get a take on "general" idea of water quality and because they are "easy" and inexpensive tests.
It is very expensive, time consuming, and difficult without a highly equip lab, to test for the other host of chemical and microbial species that are, or could become a potential problem.
Hormones, pheromones, build up of certain dangerous minerals, large bacterial colonies in detritus and D.O.C. that create biological oxygen demand (or become epidemic), and algae are also removed with water changes.
Alkalinity buffers, and other important depleted chemicals, are replenished with water changes.
If nitrate is seen as the be all, end all in determining frequency and amount of water changes, the larger picture is being missed.
In nature water is constantly being changed by tropical rains, and flowing rivers.
Most non polluted waters have a nitrate concentration of <5ppm.
Where I live the nitrate concentration of Lake Michigan is < 1ppm, these kind of numbers indicate excellent water quality.
 
duanes said:
Nitrate is a chemical indicator species, and high nitrate is telling of water degradation, but not the only reason we do water changes.
High nitrate indicates a condition where pathogenic species of bacteria, low water quality preferring algae and other phages find hospitable, and where normally non-pathogenic bacteria species become a problem.
As a former water chemist/microbiologist we use nitrate, and the indicator bacteria species coliforms, to get a take on "general" idea of water quality and because they are "easy" and inexpensive tests.
It is very expensive, time consuming, and difficult without a highly equip lab, to test for the other host of chemical and microbial species that are, or could become a potential problem.
Hormones, pheromones, build up of certain dangerous minerals, large bacterial colonies in detritus and D.O.C. that create biological oxygen demand (or become epidemic), and algae are also removed with water changes.
Alkalinity buffers, and other important depleted chemicals, are replenished with water changes.
If nitrate is seen as the be all, end all in determining frequency and amount of water changes, the larger picture is being missed.
In nature water is constantly being changed by tropical rains, and flowing rivers.
Most non polluted waters have a nitrate concentration of <5ppm.
Where I live the nitrate concentration of Lake Michigan is < 1ppm, these kind of numbers indicate excellent water quality.
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Knowing your professional back ground what are your thoughts about denitrifying nitrates and the amount of water changes needed to keep a stable environment? I was thinking of embracing the algae epidemic through a algae scrubber but that's just more maintenance and covering up the real problem imo.
 
Pyramid_Party said:
Put it this way, I only do water changes when I feel like it. Sometimes it goes months without it. Why? because I have proof and understanding that fish can tolerate more than what majority here believe. You guys take everything at face value. If someone says 20ppm nitrate is the threshold everyone gets OCD about water changes. People also want to act like elite fish keepers. truth is, no one gives a damn about your fish and your fish keeping abilities. Get off your ego trip. MANY fish live, thrive, and survive in crappy water conditions. There is proof out there proving this time and time again. None of my fish die with my lack of water changes. Go ahead and continue to waste time, money and energy all because of your ignorance. I have been keeping fish for many years, I've kept a wide range of species, have bred many species, and this is how I keep my fish and will continue to do so.
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Wow. Well seeing as though you've reduced yourself to an immature schoolboy level of bickering that is also a violation of the lounge rules and were so flustered you posted the same thing twice in different terms I've obviously struck some sort of nerve. I think I'll stick with what every professional, scientist, and serious aquarist thinks (aka Nitrates are BAD and should be kept low) vs what some quick tempered keyboard warrior thinks.

You even threw in the whole nobody cares bit I haven't heard since middle school! If nobody cared would there be any posts in this thread? Why then did you bother to post about your apparent lack of care for your fish.

Read duanes post and try to argue with him lol see how far that gets you

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Pyramid_Party said:
Put it this way, I only do water changes when I feel like it. Sometimes it goes months without it. Why? because I have proof and understanding that fish can tolerate more than what majority here believe. You guys take everything at face value. If someone says 20ppm nitrate is the threshold everyone gets OCD about water changes. People also want to act like elite fish keepers. truth is, no one gives a damn about your fish and your fish keeping abilities. Get off your ego trip. MANY fish live, thrive, and survive in crappy water conditions. There is proof out there proving this time and time again. None of my fish die with my lack of water changes. Go ahead and continue to waste time, money and energy all because of your ignorance. I have been keeping fish for many years, I've kept a wide range of species, have bred many species, and this is how I keep my fish and will continue to do so.
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I do not toatally agree but there is proof.

The 43 year old pacu "butkiss" that was inna 75 or whatever

The 20 year old comet goldfish in a bowl

Among many others.


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I use pothos, algae scrubbers and do small partial water changes at least every other day, basing any large water changes on rising nitrates, dropping alkalinity and dropping pH.

I try to keep nitrates at between 2-5ppm, my make up water has an alkalinity of about 100pm, at 60ppm in the tank, its time to change, and pH is normally 7.5, if it drops to 7.0, its time to make a change.
My filtration is a number of filter socks in sumps, sponges on top of bio towers, and planted refugiums.



I also use old bio wheels, sponges and any other pieces of junk in the sumps as biomedia.
 
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