Itaituba2003;1620422; said:
I've seen studies that back your opinion up Frank. It is better to adjust them gradually, even if in bad water, than to expose them to osmotic shock.
Acclimation methods with new fish
- Thread starter African_Fever
- Start date
I've seen studies that back your opinion up Frank. It is better to adjust them gradually, even if in bad water, than to expose them to osmotic shock.
So in this case, why not test shipping water for pH and conductivity, match it within a quarantine tank, then the only shock will be going from an ammonia situation to a non ammonia situation. I can't see that being detrimental.
tank125;1620448; said:
That would be best, but it would still be better to do it a little more gradually than immediately. Perhaps a couple of water every minute or so before dumping.
The Squirt and Dump Method vs. Drip acclimation is completely based on the amount of time the fish are in the bag.
A ray coming home from a LFS, can be drip acclimated.
A ray being imported with 24 hrs+ in the bag, should be dumped.
JD672 explained it perfectly with the ammonia toxicity and pH issue. When you open the bag, within -30 SECONDS- Ammonia toxicity sets in, and will permanently damage the fish. This is 100 hundred fold more dangerous, toxic, and detrimental to swings in pH, solids, temperature, etc.. It's especially dangerous the higher your pH is..
I've had long discussions with importers of high-end Japanese Koi, and she agrees 100% that drip acclimation is not appropriate for longer shipment times. If you understand the science behind it, you know why.. Ask your LFS to explain to you ammonia toxicity in correlation with pH.. and when they get a dumb look on their face, you can be confident to know that they are the ones who preach 'Drip acclimate everything!'.. when they actually don't know any scientific reasoning why we dump or drip.. wow.
Osmotic Shock eh? Flooded Seasons, Dry Seasons, swimming to new waterways in search of food, rain water, black water, spring run-off.. H'rm.
Do you think rays aren't exposed to sudden swings in solids and pH in the wild? They are one of the most adaptable animals from an evolutionary standpoint.. I don't think a little swing in solids is going to 'shut down' their organs from stress, but an increase in Ammonia toxicity WILL KILL THEM OUTRIGHT.
I have 'Squirt and Dumped' hundreds of rays, never lost any that weren't already curling in the bag.
"Well, it only works with Hardy rays like Motoros".. African_Fever, how those Tiger rays doing?
Temp shouldn't even be a concern, as long as it's warmer.. When I go swimming in Hawaii, I jump in the warm water with no problem. When I go swimming in Idaho, it takes me 30+ minutes to dabble my toes in the frigid water before I can get acclimated.
Not to mention, Ammonia toxicity has scientific evidence supporting it.. When the pH gets too low (from Co2 and Acids in the shipping bag) it converts to Ammonium, which is not lethal to the fish. Open the bag, gas exchange, pH elevates rapidly along with Ammonia toxicity, and your fish dies. Drip acclimation is a long-time "Myth" in the aquarium hobby.. don't get me wrong, it has it's PROs and CONs, but the CONs outweigh the hypothetical PROs.
Sooo.. If anyone wants to contest the Squirt and Dump method, I would love to see some scientific evidence supporting that osmotic stress is more hazardous to fish than ammonia toxicity.
Drip acclimation of fish that have been in the bag for extended period of time, is bad practice. The key idea is to get the fish removed from the ammonia water as soon as possible.
A ray coming home from a LFS, can be drip acclimated.
A ray being imported with 24 hrs+ in the bag, should be dumped.
JD672 explained it perfectly with the ammonia toxicity and pH issue. When you open the bag, within -30 SECONDS- Ammonia toxicity sets in, and will permanently damage the fish. This is 100 hundred fold more dangerous, toxic, and detrimental to swings in pH, solids, temperature, etc.. It's especially dangerous the higher your pH is..
I've had long discussions with importers of high-end Japanese Koi, and she agrees 100% that drip acclimation is not appropriate for longer shipment times. If you understand the science behind it, you know why.. Ask your LFS to explain to you ammonia toxicity in correlation with pH.. and when they get a dumb look on their face, you can be confident to know that they are the ones who preach 'Drip acclimate everything!'.. when they actually don't know any scientific reasoning why we dump or drip.. wow.
Osmotic Shock eh? Flooded Seasons, Dry Seasons, swimming to new waterways in search of food, rain water, black water, spring run-off.. H'rm.
Do you think rays aren't exposed to sudden swings in solids and pH in the wild? They are one of the most adaptable animals from an evolutionary standpoint.. I don't think a little swing in solids is going to 'shut down' their organs from stress, but an increase in Ammonia toxicity WILL KILL THEM OUTRIGHT.
I have 'Squirt and Dumped' hundreds of rays, never lost any that weren't already curling in the bag.
"Well, it only works with Hardy rays like Motoros".. African_Fever, how those Tiger rays doing?
Temp shouldn't even be a concern, as long as it's warmer.. When I go swimming in Hawaii, I jump in the warm water with no problem. When I go swimming in Idaho, it takes me 30+ minutes to dabble my toes in the frigid water before I can get acclimated.
Not to mention, Ammonia toxicity has scientific evidence supporting it.. When the pH gets too low (from Co2 and Acids in the shipping bag) it converts to Ammonium, which is not lethal to the fish. Open the bag, gas exchange, pH elevates rapidly along with Ammonia toxicity, and your fish dies. Drip acclimation is a long-time "Myth" in the aquarium hobby.. don't get me wrong, it has it's PROs and CONs, but the CONs outweigh the hypothetical PROs.
Sooo.. If anyone wants to contest the Squirt and Dump method, I would love to see some scientific evidence supporting that osmotic stress is more hazardous to fish than ammonia toxicity.
Drip acclimation of fish that have been in the bag for extended period of time, is bad practice. The key idea is to get the fish removed from the ammonia water as soon as possible.
cchhcc;1620437; said:
I'm sorry.. But I think you are wrong.
Do a controlled test.. get in 2 shipment bags of the same fish.
Drip acclimate one bag with ammonia in the water, see what happens..
Dump acclimate one bag with ammonia in the water, see what happens..
I have done this test MANY times with Angelfish at my work. The ones that get drip acclimated all come down with HYPERPLASIA and die. Hyperplasia is from ammonia toxicity damage. It's often confused with 'pH shock'..
The dumped ones live, no pH shock issues.. Osmotic stress and pH shock is likely a myth that came from people who didn't understand that the ammonia toxicity is actually the culprit killer, not the pH swings.
I have dumped 'sensitive' fish from 6.0 to 8.0 pH, no issues. I have dripped 'hardy' fish with ammonia in the water, and killed them.
Did you know AmQUEL was designed in the 1970s to 'Squirt and Dump' acclimate sensitive fish like Discus and Apistogrammas? It's because scientists discovered it was the rise in ammonia toxicity killing the soft water fish, when they had pointed the finger at pH and osmotic stress for a long time.
the thing is with big changes in PH is they need to be made slowly over a few days not in a few hours by dripping
so if you keep a fish in the bag for a few hours dripping water in its still going to have the same efect as if you just dump the fish in
the tank water should be 100x better than the water in the bag if the fish has been in the bag for more than 2hrs
buy just dumping the fish in the tank surely all you are doing is just giving the fish 1 nice big water change of fresh clean water
this drip method has never made any sence to me why put the fish under more stress than needed
so if you keep a fish in the bag for a few hours dripping water in its still going to have the same efect as if you just dump the fish in
the tank water should be 100x better than the water in the bag if the fish has been in the bag for more than 2hrs
buy just dumping the fish in the tank surely all you are doing is just giving the fish 1 nice big water change of fresh clean water
this drip method has never made any sence to me why put the fish under more stress than needed
