All natural vs. selective bred phenotypes... do you have a preferece and why?

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FishGoneWild;2930925; said:
Selective breeding is a form of biological engineer. That's how they got the Octuplets!:D I do think selective breeding do alter the evolution process.


I'm not sure I agree with that, but I need to read up on artificial insemination more.

See, to produce those octuplets, they inject an abnormal ammount of fertilized embryos into the mother. That is not natural breeding, that is engineering.
 
flamenco-t;2930928; said:
As long as there's demand, ppl will do what ever it takes to make money.

Look at jelly bean parrots..

I am okay with WC or selective breed...as long as the fish weren't harmed in the process.


Yes its true that some ornamental fish farmers do some rediculous things to their animals to turn a profit, but lets not compare apples to oranges.

Jelly bean parrots are a hybrid of two different types of cichlids. I'm talking about natural genetic variation within a species.

What if the process doesn't harm them, but the outcome does? What are your views on short body fish?
 
The only thing I don't like about captive breed bichirs are those farmers who use hormones to mass produce their products and end up developing some deformed fish and shrinking the maximum size. If it's a natural breed in captivity then I don't mind whatever species they are. I do like wild caught bichirs too, but I will only probably get them in limited numbers and not in mass numbers, maybe just a pair of each region variant. On the other hand I like captive breeds more as there are more uniquely patterned that will sometimes comes out of a batch, different color morph but I'm bot a big fan of short-bodies as well, espcially with short body senegalus. I don't mind longfin as I want some in my collection. Hybrids I don't mind as well as long as I know the parents of the hybrid fish. Plus hybrid fish will do no harm to the wild as they are not fertile.

"PolyMaterial Farm", "Grand Endlicheri Farm" and "Kahimata" are some of a few trustful bichirs farms in Japan. As every fish comes with the cert indicating the wild parents, region varaint and other traits.
 
''May I ask why you can tolerate leucistic more than albino? They are both a form of naturally occuring albinism, which have been documented in many animals.''

And its generaly an undesired trait.Albino animals in general tend to have have other issues which is why in the wild they are often the first to be elimanate.Since albinoism is relativly new in polypterids say the last five years in CB specimens
no one really knows the effects or ramifactions this will bring about but if you
notice they also tend to be smaller so far than normal senegals.And yes while
albinos do exist in the wild is it right for humans to engineer them.

As for leucisticism i have no real information on the trait one way or the other.

As for short bodies again no one know the effects of this trait as of yet due to the relative recent availability.

Now on to farming I have doubts about the breeding stock and husbanry protocols
they follow not to mention the hormones and other chemicals that are used in the process-Anne
 
One question I have is that I know some breeding places use artificial hormones to induce breeding, but what are the documented negative effects? Or are the negative effects commonly associated with mass bred fish by use of hormones (like shortened life span, odd deformities, smaller sizes, etc) just anecdotal (SP?)? And if they are just anecdotal, do you think that because they are captive bred and the ones with odd deformities and smaller sizes and such are not culled by nature and natural selection pressures is the reason that we see more of them in captive bred populations?

If that is the case, then it is not necessarily the use of hormones that cause lower quality fish, but the lack of "quality control", for lack of better terminology, that causes lower quality stock in captive bred fishes.
 
I know of no studies as of yet,However the use of hormones was orginaly used
for foodfish destined for human consumption.
how fish are farmed
p until recently all polypterids were wild caught.And rarely found in local shops.This has recently changed with large numbers of Polypterus senegalus appearing in the shops and at such small sizes they must be being farmed.The normal senegals were the first to appear followed about a year later by albino versions of the senegals and while albinos occur normaly in nature the sheer volume indictates farming.
How do you captive breed polypterids?
While a few species had bred in captivity it had not been on a commercial basis and until recently.There are three methods of fish farming
Currently farm raised species include
Polypterus delhezi
Polypterus palmas polli
Polypterus ornatipinnis
Polypterus endlicheri endlicheri
Polypterus senegalus normal coloration and albino variation
Polypterus bichir lapraedi
Method#1
Lots of male and female fish and let nature take it course (not real efficient)
Naturaly occuring hormones
Gonadotropic hormones (GtH) have been isolated in varying degrees of purity from the pituitary glands of several teleost fishes including some cultivated species such as common carp,Cyprinus carpio,chinook salmon,Heteropneustes fossilis,
Acipenser stellatus,to name some natural sources.
The piscine gonadotropins are glycoprotein in nature.The amino acid composition of gonadotropins from carp, sturgeon,
rainbow trout and others shows a broad similarity to the mammalian luteinizing hormone. The gonadotropins from carp, sturgeon and trout are each composed of two subunits, the alpha and beta chains; the amino acid and carbohydrate compositions,
Where it comes from and how it works.
Below the brain of a fish is a gland called the pituitary, which controls the spawning of fish. It is removed, crushed in distilled water and injected into the fish muscle to stimulate the fish to spawn.
Synthetic hormones
include
Ovaprim
Wova-FH
Ovatide
Method#2
Lots of males and females add some Gonadotropic hormones and and hope for the best.All injections were either intraperitoneal or intramuscular,Usually at a rate of The doses of such hormonal preparations (Ovaprim/Ovatide/Wova-FH), in general, ranges 0.3 - 0.5 ml/kg body weight of female and 0.2 - 0.3 ml/kg body weight. of the male.And then let them bred naturaly.
Method#3
A technique — called the Linpe method — induces ovulation in female fish by injecting them with a combination of a synthetic gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogue (LHRN-A) and the drug domperidone. The hormone stimulates the sex organs of the fish, while the drug inhibits the action of dopamine, a substance produced by the fish that inhibits ovulation.

When appropriate ripe females and males are available, eggs were stripped and fertilized according to the following spawning procedure:The male and female are anesthetized with MS222 in a 1% salt bath. The vent area on both fish is patted dry prior to stripping (Piper et al., 1982; Rottmann et al., 1991c). The milt isstripped into a 50 ml centrifuge tube containing a small amount of tempered Hank’s Balanced Salt Solution (HBSS); if necessary, additional HBSS is added for an equal volume of HBSS and milt. The females’ eggs are stripped into a Ziploc bag (quart or gallon) containing tempered HBSS, enough to cover the expected amount of eggs. The HBSS is then drained and the milt is added along with water for activation and mixed by gently rocking the bag for 3 minutes. The water is poured off and the fertilized eggs are rinsed several times. A tempered bentonite solution (50 grams/liter water)is added to the eggs for 15 minutes while occasionally gently rocking the bag (Rottmann et al.,1991f). Eggs are rinsed thoroughly, then water is added and water hardening occurs for an additional 45 minutes in tempered water (Piper et al., 1982)..
Outside China, a Canadian company, Syndel International Inc., has developed a single product containing both the hormone and the dopamine antagonist in the same solution. Known commercially as Ovaprim, this product has become an industry standard. With traditional fish spawning methods, carp, for example, are raised and killed to produce a pituitary extract used to induce spawning. Many fish are sacrificed in the process and the extract has a poor shelf life. The technique also requires that fish are injected at two separate intervals to induce ovulation.

The new method reduces the cost of production, increases the supply of seed fish, and is more convenient. Rates of spawning, fertilization, hatching, and survival were significantly higher in research trials than could be achieved with pituitary injections. The hormone and drug can be introduced together, which means that brood fish stock are handled only once, reducing the risk of disease or damage to the fish. This method does not alter the reproductive cycle of the fish, and the fertility and viability of offspring are normal. The solution does not require refrigeration and has a long shelf life. It has been tested on a wide range of fresh, salt, and brackish water species, including carp, bream, salmon, catfish, loach, and others.
In China, the kit consists of a vial of the synthetic hormone, a vial of the drug domperidone, saline solution, and a syringe. Workshops have been held in fish hatcheries and with Chinese farmers to promote acceptance and proper use of the new method.-Anne
 
and of course i might have run across 2 papers evluating them go figure -Anne
 
davcheng;2931817; said:
One question I have is that I know some breeding places use artificial hormones to induce breeding, but what are the documented negative effects? Or are the negative effects commonly associated with mass bred fish by use of hormones (like shortened life span, odd deformities, smaller sizes, etc) just anecdotal (SP?)? And if they are just anecdotal, do you think that because they are captive bred and the ones with odd deformities and smaller sizes and such are not culled by nature and natural selection pressures is the reason that we see more of them in captive bred populations?

If that is the case, then it is not necessarily the use of hormones that cause lower quality fish, but the lack of "quality control", for lack of better terminology, that causes lower quality stock in captive bred fishes.


Excellent post Dav! I wish I knew the answers to these questions, but I need to research the points you bring up more, if any work has been done on them in the first place.
 
Well i learned about injecting tropical gars lol sorry-Anne
 
davcheng;2931817; said:
One question I have is that I know some breeding places use artificial hormones to induce breeding, but what are the documented negative effects? Or are the negative effects commonly associated with mass bred fish by use of hormones (like shortened life span, odd deformities, smaller sizes, etc) just anecdotal (SP?)? And if they are just anecdotal, do you think that because they are captive bred and the ones with odd deformities and smaller sizes and such are not culled by nature and natural selection pressures is the reason that we see more of them in captive bred populations?

If that is the case, then it is not necessarily the use of hormones that cause lower quality fish, but the lack of "quality control", for lack of better terminology, that causes lower quality stock in captive bred fishes.

Reason why there are plenty of shortened life span, odd deformities, smaller sizes, etc, it's because they are inbreeding with their own siblings, and it weakening the gene in captive breeds. Unlike in the wild where they are wide spreads. This not only this happens in bichirs but to other animals as well and that also include humans.
 
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