Alternative Ray Diets - Collective Brainstorm?
- Thread starter Miles
- Start date
You bring up some good points Miles.
Keep in mind that calories, and overall protein/fat content can be limited by simply limiting the amount that one feeds. Instead of 10 pellets per feed, feed 5, and you have just reduced the overall nutrient intake of that fish by 50%.
There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the crude protein percentage found on fish food labels.
Percentages on fish food labels are for the most part nothing more than numbers that someone wearing a white lab coat have come up with via an in-house analysis. As an example, the crude protein % is nothing more than the total nitrogen content found in the food. It doesn't tell you anything about the amino acid content, the overall quality of that protein, or even the total digestibility of that protein. (as in the protein that your fish can actually assimilate) An old leather boot would appear as "crude protein" on a pet food label.
In other words it is impossible to judge the quality of one food over another by simply comparing percentages found on a label, nor does it necessarily mean that a commercial fish food that has a crude protein percent of 48% equates to the fish being able to assimilate all of that crude protein.
In tropical fish food, there are a number of raw ingredients that can also inflate the overall crude protein percent, yet in reality add only a small portion to the total digestibility of the total crude protein. As an example, most large predatory (carnivorous species) that have been studied within the aquaculture industry seem to only be able to assimilate approx 20% starch. If too much starch is added to the formula (which is quite common in many pet foods) then the growth & overall health can be affected. With grains & grain by-products being much less costly than marine based proteins, some pet food manufacturers will utilize as much of these less costly ingredients as possible. Soy based starch is quite often used to boost the total crude protein (nitrogen) content, with some of these raw ingredients having a crude protein content as high as 90%. The problem lies in the fact that for many species of fish, only a small percentage of that 90% crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish.
If a fish food label shows a crude protein percent of 48%, but only 50% of that crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish, a more accurate reading for that food would be a total digestible protein reading of 24%. As most species mature, the less protein they require in their diet for growth & normal metabolic function. Many hobbyists seem to be under the impression that the more protein the better, no matter what stage of life their fish is at. This is simply not true.
This is precisely why I tell hobbyists to forget about the numbers on the labels, and focus on the raw ingredients that make up those numbers. Also keep a VERY close eye on the amount (or number) of grain/starch ingredients listed.
In the end the only protein that truly matters is the amount of total digestible protein, as in the amount of protein that can be utilized by your fish.
The reality is that power growing is almost never beneficial to the fish, and most hobbyists do in fact overfeed their fish. The more you feed, the faster they grow, the sooner they die.
Fatty liver disease is far more common in tropical fish than what most people realize, and is certainly nothing new within the aquaculture industry. Feeding fish diets that contain excessive amounts of crude fat is a sure fire way to shave a few yrs of life off of your fish. Having said that, again, this can be controlled by both the type of feeds offered, as well as the amount offered. Fat is the main energy source used by fish, so the trick is to feed only enough fat to satisfy the fishes overall energy requirements. BTW - excess carbs can also be stored as fat, which is another good reason why high carb diets are not recommended for most species of fish.
I have a feeling you're right, but seeing as I have a vested interest in one of the commercial fish food companies on the market I'll only say that IMHO a high quality pellet feed can supply all of the "varied diet" that a ray kept in captivity requires, in a safe & properly balanced form. No need to worry about excessive calories or fat, as long as one feeds appropriately.
ronin ...... Crickets are a poor source of nutrition for any freshwater fish, they simply don't contain the type or amounts of nutrients that fish require for optimum health. As far as reptile foods go, many of them contain the identical ingredients found in commercial fish foods. Krill meal - Fish meal - Fish Oil - Spirulina - etc.
Here's an example of a commercial reptile food;
Ingredients: alfalfa, krill meal, fish oil, fish meal, spirulina, beta carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12, Riboflavin, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin, DL Alphatocopherol (E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (C), choline chloride, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, mineral water
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (min): 35%
Vitamin A (min): 8000 IU/kg (3600 IU/lb),
Crude Fat (min): 7 %
Vitamin D3 (min): 450 IU/kg (205 IU/lb),
Crude Fiber (max): 5%
Vitamin E (min): 200 IU/kg (90 IU/lb)
Moisture (max): 10% ,
Ash (max): 9 %
While I can't say that I personally know anyone that feeds their fish pellets designed for reptiles, I do know a number of people who feed pellets designed for fish, to their herps.
Keep in mind that calories, and overall protein/fat content can be limited by simply limiting the amount that one feeds. Instead of 10 pellets per feed, feed 5, and you have just reduced the overall nutrient intake of that fish by 50%.
There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the crude protein percentage found on fish food labels.
Percentages on fish food labels are for the most part nothing more than numbers that someone wearing a white lab coat have come up with via an in-house analysis. As an example, the crude protein % is nothing more than the total nitrogen content found in the food. It doesn't tell you anything about the amino acid content, the overall quality of that protein, or even the total digestibility of that protein. (as in the protein that your fish can actually assimilate) An old leather boot would appear as "crude protein" on a pet food label.
In other words it is impossible to judge the quality of one food over another by simply comparing percentages found on a label, nor does it necessarily mean that a commercial fish food that has a crude protein percent of 48% equates to the fish being able to assimilate all of that crude protein.
In tropical fish food, there are a number of raw ingredients that can also inflate the overall crude protein percent, yet in reality add only a small portion to the total digestibility of the total crude protein. As an example, most large predatory (carnivorous species) that have been studied within the aquaculture industry seem to only be able to assimilate approx 20% starch. If too much starch is added to the formula (which is quite common in many pet foods) then the growth & overall health can be affected. With grains & grain by-products being much less costly than marine based proteins, some pet food manufacturers will utilize as much of these less costly ingredients as possible. Soy based starch is quite often used to boost the total crude protein (nitrogen) content, with some of these raw ingredients having a crude protein content as high as 90%. The problem lies in the fact that for many species of fish, only a small percentage of that 90% crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish.
If a fish food label shows a crude protein percent of 48%, but only 50% of that crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish, a more accurate reading for that food would be a total digestible protein reading of 24%. As most species mature, the less protein they require in their diet for growth & normal metabolic function. Many hobbyists seem to be under the impression that the more protein the better, no matter what stage of life their fish is at. This is simply not true.
This is precisely why I tell hobbyists to forget about the numbers on the labels, and focus on the raw ingredients that make up those numbers. Also keep a VERY close eye on the amount (or number) of grain/starch ingredients listed.
In the end the only protein that truly matters is the amount of total digestible protein, as in the amount of protein that can be utilized by your fish.
The reality is that power growing is almost never beneficial to the fish, and most hobbyists do in fact overfeed their fish. The more you feed, the faster they grow, the sooner they die.
Fatty liver disease is far more common in tropical fish than what most people realize, and is certainly nothing new within the aquaculture industry. Feeding fish diets that contain excessive amounts of crude fat is a sure fire way to shave a few yrs of life off of your fish. Having said that, again, this can be controlled by both the type of feeds offered, as well as the amount offered. Fat is the main energy source used by fish, so the trick is to feed only enough fat to satisfy the fishes overall energy requirements. BTW - excess carbs can also be stored as fat, which is another good reason why high carb diets are not recommended for most species of fish.
I have a feeling you're right, but seeing as I have a vested interest in one of the commercial fish food companies on the market I'll only say that IMHO a high quality pellet feed can supply all of the "varied diet" that a ray kept in captivity requires, in a safe & properly balanced form. No need to worry about excessive calories or fat, as long as one feeds appropriately.
ronin ...... Crickets are a poor source of nutrition for any freshwater fish, they simply don't contain the type or amounts of nutrients that fish require for optimum health. As far as reptile foods go, many of them contain the identical ingredients found in commercial fish foods. Krill meal - Fish meal - Fish Oil - Spirulina - etc.
Here's an example of a commercial reptile food;
Ingredients: alfalfa, krill meal, fish oil, fish meal, spirulina, beta carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12, Riboflavin, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin, DL Alphatocopherol (E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (C), choline chloride, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, mineral water
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (min): 35%
Vitamin A (min): 8000 IU/kg (3600 IU/lb),
Crude Fat (min): 7 %
Vitamin D3 (min): 450 IU/kg (205 IU/lb),
Crude Fiber (max): 5%
Vitamin E (min): 200 IU/kg (90 IU/lb)
Moisture (max): 10% ,
Ash (max): 9 %
While I can't say that I personally know anyone that feeds their fish pellets designed for reptiles, I do know a number of people who feed pellets designed for fish, to their herps.
ronin_man;2247965; said:
We feed live and frozen grass shrimp daily,we can pack one kg. per package to go by seafreight. interested ?
good thread i have fed Mazuri gel,Ken's meat & spirulina wafers, Ken's earthworm sticks, and Hikari massivore. all of these Hikari seems the best however expensive. long term nutritional value good question. how about Frank doesn't he have a custom prepared food and how long has he been using this food? if i can find a good pellet with a better price than Hikari i would definitely use this as a staple.
Check out what I found at your local favorite corporate Pet Store
Dragonfly Larvae
Snails / Red Shrimp
Deshelled Snails
Dragonfly Larvae
Snails / Red Shrimp
Deshelled Snails
