Altum angels - impossible?

[dirtyblacksocks]

Just so you're aware there are altums being kept in 3000 gallon+ tanks across the world in setups far superior to what your average hobbyist is going to keep them in and they still have yet to spawn. I'm not entirely sure anyone knows the trigger, or it's very possible that they just flat out won't breed in captivity.

If you want apisto's at good prices (your sig) check out http://www.southernapistos.com Mike is a great guy, I've dealt with him numerous times and his stock is of the highest quality.

 

[ewok]

Just so you're aware there are altums being kept in 3000 gallon+ tanks across the world in setups far superior to what your average hobbyist is going to keep them in and they still have yet to spawn. I'm not entirely sure anyone knows the trigger, or it's very possible that they just flat out won't breed in captivity.

If you want apisto's at good prices (your sig) check out http://www.southernapistos.com Mike is a great guy, I've dealt with him numerous times and his stock is of the highest quality.

thanks for the tip on apistos. i've been there a few times but the ones i really want to get aren't available yet.

 

[Tongue33]

Just so you're aware there are altums being kept in 3000 gallon+ tanks across the world in setups far superior to what your average hobbyist is going to keep them in and they still have yet to spawn. I'm not entirely sure anyone knows the trigger, or it's very possible that they just flat out won't breed in captivity.

If this is possible.. well then Altums PERIOD is Possible

I used to know a friend of Horst Linke's, Heinz Meiler. We talked about his "tank bred" altums. They are acutally a cross between scalare and altums. The way he did it was to get a male scalare near a female altum who was egg heavy. The forced breeding took place after a 50% water change daily for 2 wks, along with a high protein diet (beef heart mix in the morning and blood worms in the evening). The water was kept at around 6.8-7.0 pH filtered over peat moss. The results weren't all that impressive. The ones that truely resembled altums were then crossed against wild caught altums. This has gone on for a while. The basis of it was the fact that a little scalare blood mixed in caused the "tank breeding factor" to be stronger in the "altums".

 

[Tongue33]

WOW.. This is a very interesting possible contradiciton to the previous non spawning Altums.

http://www.archangelus.com/breedingaltums

I don't know really the difference between the two .. So Dirtyblack socks.. What do you think.. Is this real??

 

[ewok]

i have so far only read half that article, but man that seems to go against everything i've read so far about them, including pH, water changes (chlorinated tap water????), filtration (not such a biggie).
i almost want to go ask TFH if that article is real, because if it was THAT 'easy' why aren't there more spawnings? or are altums just suckers for punishment, but decide to show it to us otherwise???

 

[dirtyblacksocks]

To the best of my knowledge the only true altum breeding project that's even yielded fertilized eggs took place ONCE in Germany in a 2000+ gallon tank and none of the keepers are sure what triggered it.

It's not realistic to think that as a small time hobbyist you're going to be able to find the time or have deep enough pockets to start experimenting with getting altums to breed - it is POSSIBLE but it's a very slim possibility.

Like I said, there are scientists with funding out there attempting this and they can't get it down - unless you've got deep pockets, a lot of free time and a room to dedicate to various tanks with different parameters, it's very unlikely.

Keeping altums alive is a challenge in itself and having a healthy school of the fish should be just as if not more rewarding then breeding fish...

I would keep altums myself if I had the time to put into keeping them healthy but as it stands I don't, maybe 20 years from now they'll be where discus are at now...who knows.

 

[phillausten]

I agree with dirtyblacksocks that Altum are unlikely to breed for ordinary hobbyists (they are certainly not community fish) and that just keeping them well is rewarding. However, I feel that the challenge is in initially, getting these fish acclimatised to tank life. Once acclimatised, they are as resilient as other softwater fish. Sometimes these fish acclimatise readily (in my experience, the smallest juveniles have been the most consistently successfull) more often they go into an apparent irreversible decline.
It appears that the fish that have bred have usually been older (5years or so). The water is still "muddy" in regard to altum identification. Heiko Bleher asserts that what he describes as Altum have never been bred. However, several people appear to have bred fish that to all intents and purposes appear to be Orinoco Altum. There has been no verification that the Linke fish were derived from hybrids (they certainly look like Orinoco fish) even if they were, it is a considerable step towards creating an aquarium strain of the most exquisite of Angelfish. IMHO much of the confusion is down to the difference in proportions between the juvenile and adult fish. Few of us get to see the large adults which do not show quite the same shape and fin to body ratio as the juveniles, plus there are several "Scalare" variants that exhibit some "altumish" characteristics. All of these things add to the confusion, but what cracking fish they are!

 

[Superlaz]

they have been bred a handful of times...of which the last few have been hormone induced

 

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

this is Heiko Bleher and I just saw my name mentioned.

It is a real fact, with what seems one single exception worldwide, that the real P. altum (upper Orinoco species described by Pellegrin in 1904 and endemic to that region and not found anywhere else in the world, a fish which can have a span of almost 20 cm (8plus inches) on top and the same length below its body - as I have seen and collected it (and I guess I was the first to bring them out alive before 1970s) has never been spawned up to this day successfully.

And I must add again: the true P. altum is also exported from Colombia (Pto. Inirida) and all of those are extremely difficult to acclimatize, or even to keep a life. Almost all die, anywhere they have been shipped to. If in Asia, Europe, Japan or America. Unfortunately the ones from Venezuela (Adabapo) have not been exported anymore for several year. No one has those. And those were very easy to keep and acclimatize.

There is NO hybridization which has taken place, and there is no offspring of the real P. altum around. Those the man from Toronto (Jim Robinson, published in TFH many years ago). Those from Linke (to whom I gave the real one) are P. scalare from the Rio Negro, those I have seen around the world. And just two days ago in Germany at Kölle-Zoo in Stuttgart. They have about 20 beautiful animals in a giant tank, and each one has at least 10 inches (25 cm) body size, but the fins are very short... Those are Linke's Altums... beautiful fish, but not the fish we all (I would guess) are talking about.

I have lectures in Toronto on June 26th and I will (hopefully) also talk about it and I am anxious to meet Jim to talk to him. Because I know there was a mix up in text and photos in his article, but the P. altum he showed were the real ones, not as those from Linke.

I have written so much about it, also in NUTRAFIN AQUATIC NEWS, which one can go to by just entering my homepage:
www.aquapress-bleher.com and go to Publications. It was in issue 3 of NAN. And in addition you can read also much about it in my book, Bleher's Discus Volume I, as it as almost everything about Amazonias fishes and by far not only discus...

All the very best to you altum-lover,

from a collector

Heiko Bleher

 

[ewok]

hi heiko, i've read some of your postings on discus forums. thank you for answering my questions. fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you see it, i've decided to give a pass on altums for the time being. i really do want to get something for altums in the future. but i think i would really need to devote some serious effort to keep them well. i think a tall 150+ gallon would do it for a dozen large specimens
we'll see. thank you for all the replies. much appreciated.