Angels with bent fins

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Hang on to the deformed fish for a while. Think of them as dithers, to diffuse aggression. Start to cull a few at a time as your stock packs on size and your tank fills up.

One thing to try in the future is growing out in a barebottom tank. I never thought to do this until I began researching discus. Barebottom tanks make water changes alot faster & you can really target the extra food & waste that gravel/sand hides. It may not look the best, but its a breeze for growouts.
 
Thanks for the info Decoy. I will keep them around until my stock starts to fill out and then cull them starting with the worst looking ones first. I plan to keep the six best looking ones JD I will sell any remaining angels that don't have fin deformities.

I plan to start a discus tank in the eventual future (probably a few years away) and I love growing fish out, so I will use your advice on bare bottom tanks. Makes a lot of sense. :)

So while I don't necessarily like the idea of culling the angels, I do understand the necessity of keeping the gene pool as clean as possible. What is the most humane way to cull them?


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You're going to get many answers to that question and it comes down to personal preference. You can put them in a bucket of ice water, some people dose the water with clove oil - knocks them unconscious so they can be frozen or whatever. On the other side, some people go from the tank to the garbage disposal. Personally, I flush my culls. If they're too big to flush, I throw them in the backyard for the cat to eat.
 
decoy50 said:
You're going to get many answers to that question and it comes down to personal preference. You can put them in a bucket of ice water, some people dose the water with clove oil - knocks them unconscious so they can be frozen or whatever. On the other side, some people go from the tank to the garbage disposal. Personally, I flush my culls. If they're too big to flush, I throw them in the backyard for the cat to eat.
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Okay. Thanks for the advice.


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I'm a bit late to this thread but my guess is from water quality. I have raised a ton of angels. One thing I have learned is that they will develop "chopped" fins without the proper amount of water changes/tank cleanings. 20 pea-sized angels in a 20 gallon tank with at least two daily feedings should have been getting at least 50% water changes a day. If you look at pictures of juvenile angels you will see this a lot on grow-outs -- the tips of their dorsal and anal fins will look chopped or cut, instead of being lobe-shaped like they should be. If the water isn't corrected the fins will curl over and heal improperly which is what you're seeing here IMO.

One test before culling would be to take an angel, cut its fins back with a pair of scissors, then put it in clean water to see if they grow back straight. If you're going to cull eventually anyway it'd be an interesting experiment.

I was having a problem with fin development recently in my Heroina fry and it ended up being a mineral deficiency in the water. The fry were using up what minerals were in my tap water and it was affecting their fin (and probably bone) development. It's most likely because I had over a hundred fry in a 40 breeder, so even the 100% daily water changes weren't adding back enough minerals for proper development. I remedied this in future batches by adding Epsom salt (magnesium) and calcium chloride to the tank -- now they all have perfect fins, gills, and bodies. You may be seeing something similar here since you had so many fish in such a small tank with infrequent water changes.
 
ryansmith83 said:
I'm a bit late to this thread but my guess is from water quality. I have raised a ton of angels. One thing I have learned is that they will develop "chopped" fins without the proper amount of water changes/tank cleanings. 20 pea-sized angels in a 20 gallon tank with at least two daily feedings should have been getting at least 50% water changes a day. If you look at pictures of juvenile angels you will see this a lot on grow-outs -- the tips of their dorsal and anal fins will look chopped or cut, instead of being lobe-shaped like they should be. If the water isn't corrected the fins will curl over and heal improperly which is what you're seeing here IMO.

One test before culling would be to take an angel, cut its fins back with a pair of scissors, then put it in clean water to see if they grow back straight. If you're going to cull eventually anyway it'd be an interesting experiment.

I was having a problem with fin development recently in my Heroina fry and it ended up being a mineral deficiency in the water. The fry were using up what minerals were in my tap water and it was affecting their fin (and probably bone) development. It's most likely because I had over a hundred fry in a 40 breeder, so even the 100% daily water changes weren't adding back enough minerals for proper development. I remedied this in future batches by adding Epsom salt (magnesium) and calcium chloride to the tank -- now they all have perfect fins, gills, and bodies. You may be seeing something similar here since you had so many fish in such a small tank with infrequent water changes.
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Thanks for the advice. :) The angels are in a 55 now with about 1/4 around nickel size and the other 3/4 around dime size. They moved to the tank a few weeks back and have just started to get comfortable with the tank. Many of them are swimming freely instead of hiding. I have increased my water changes from 30% twice a week to 50% twice a week since this thread went up.

And I think I did a poor job with sizes earlier. I looked it up and sizes tend to be described based on body size without fins included, though some people (including the guy I bought the angels from) include the fins in their sizes. The pea size he sent me included their fins. So I was simply regurgitating the info. The sizes I gave above without fins included.

One question though. If it is a water quality issue, why would it be affecting half of them and not the rest?

I may try that fin cutting experiment and see if it does any good.


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Mythic Figment said:
Good read, but I don't have any of the deformities they mentioned. Not sure if that means mine are likely genetic or they just didn't list all the likely environmental affects.
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The very first thumbnail shows angels with stunted/curled/chopped dorsal and anal fins, which is the problem you're having. Yours isn't as severe but it stems from the same problem. Here is what the culling guide says about that:

Below is a group of older fry that have likely suffered from overcrowding. The dorsal, anal and ventral fins all show signs of bacterial damage. Given improved conditions the dorsal and anal fins might improve but the ventrals, especially on the fish where they are really short will not re-grow normally if at all.
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The issue of chopped fins can start very early. It's entirely possible that the fry had been crowded before you received them at pea size and they continued to develop improperly.

Here are a few more people who mention chopped fins due to poor conditions, including Steve Rybicki of Angels Plus:

http://74.53.86.82/~angel200/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=5433

http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleBreeding6.htm

You will have culls in every batch of angelfish but it's unlikely that their genetics would be so bad as to affect that many per spawn.

Did you receive these fish from a reputable source? Have you seen the parent fish?
 
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