Anyone else had bad experiences with Geophagus?

[Rafini]

it will be almost a year since I stocked my 120 with Geos and decided to make a geophagus tank, and I have been nothing but underwhelmed with them.

They seem to be fussy with temperature, oxygen content, flow and in my experience prone to getting fungus on their fins and body when they are too stressed (EG bullying).

Right now I have a very beautiful 4.5" heckelii who is beginning to develop trailers, it is a beautiful fish but he dominated and bullied the other 2 I got with him until one died and the other is very stressed right now. I got all of these guys at 1" and I thought a 120g would have been capable of growing them out. I had read that adults will usually pick on eachother until one is left, but I didn`t expect this behavior from juveniles.

I picked up x5 1" Geophagus altifrons and for a long time they were very easy to care for and grew at a consistent rate. My filter got clogged a while back and I ended up losing a few fish from the bad water quality and I have since replace the filter. Right now I have one very nice 3" or so guy starting to show good colors. My tank was a little more towards the higher end of the temperature scale so I had a good powerhead in there to oxygenate the tank and recently I removed it to clean it out thoroughly and a day or two later I had two Altifrons that were refusing food and acting distressed. They were being bullied by my red ceibal so I ended up selling him. They died.

x4 Redhead Tapajos, about a month after owning these very colorful geos 2 of them had died by what looks like lack of oxygenation, I read that Geos require a very high oxygen content so this is when I went out and got a high GPH flow powerhead. For the longest time these guys were stable, I lost one when my filter clogged and my only remaining one died today. He was in perfect health and eating regularly.


The water in my area is very alkaline and hard, and I tried to do as much research as possible to create a good environment for my fish, I even used peat to help soften the water and regular water changes twice a week.

I had to recalibrate my heater last night as I have a feeling he is the root of a lot of the problems I had in that aquarium and now it is at 25 degrees. From What I read the temperature should be anywhere from 22-29 and I was more at 29 before which I understand creates a less oxygenated environment.


I am not trying to say that Geos are a bad fish to keep, Ive kept and bred cichlids for over 10 years and I pride myself on being very knowledgeable on not just the topic of cichlids, but aquariums in general.
Nothing else in my aquarium has died, I have some mild compatible cichlids that have all done well, plenty of schoolers and other level occupying fish that have thrived. In fact the 2 mollies i cycled the tank with are still swimming around happily.
I just feel let down that I failed to create the aquarium that I set out to create. I did have some unfortunate luck along the way but I was not prepared for how picky these fish could be. The red heads were WC I believe which may have been a reason why they were not so tolerable of my water conditions.

So my question is has anyone else had bad luck keeping this family of fish? or was I just unlucky?

 

[duanes]

I find the older heckelli get, the more problematic they get.
I was warned that tanks in the +250 gal range were the only suitable size for adult heckelli but tried in my 150 anyway, with less than satisfactory results. The moment they hit maturity, they started killing each other.
And until I realized that Gymnogeophagus and any other Uruguayan cichlid needs diurnal temp variations, and cool downs, I lost a number of them.
Mixing southern S Americans with northern S Americans is just not reasonable, and probably a disaster waiting to happen.
And because my tap water is alkaline, I find only getting the fish that tolerate it, is the way to go. I've always wanted Uaru fernadezyepezi, but believe in my tanks, they would simply waste away, so it would be pointless exercise in futility.

 

[Rafini]

I read that Heckelii only do well solo in aquariums that aren`t huge, which is a shame because they look so beautiful in a group.
I actually was prepared to put the red ceibal on a cooldown period in its own aquarium and everything but it was just a menace, one of the most relentless harrassers I have kept. Maybe I just got a bad one but it was a mean fish.

We live and learn from our hobby and all the signs have told me I shouldn`t expect to keep thriving geophagus. I tried a small group of 4 juvies about 2 years ago and they suffocated when my heater broke and killed all my stock. My water is perfect for african cichlids but I would love to keep some of the soft water species of South America but I feel like without a lot of effort on my part to keep the water acceptable they will suffer. Until this year I didn`t think I could keep plants alive and I proved myself wrong there so who knows if I will be able to keep Geos happy someday.

I just wanted to share my experience and find out if others have found them to be a somewhat demanding group of fish, I don`t keep an air pump in any of my aquariums and this may well be soemthing they require.

 

[duanes]

I don't use air pumps either, with the agitation and flow from water entering the tank from sumps, it is not needed. On some occasions I do use venturi valves on the influent to tanks.
below, tank with a venturi in influent

below an influent not using venturi, these ususally create enough turblance that an air pump is not needed.

 

[neutrino]

Bullied by other fish, filter and heater issues... sounds like a series of unfortunate events for your geos. Yes, they have requirements, clean water, appropriate temperatures, compatible tankmates, but that can be said of a lot of fish and I haven't found geos to be particularly difficult. I will say some of them are less tolerant of high ph/hard water than others ime, they don't necessarily need soft water/low ph, but some species seem to have limits that don't go much beyond moderate ph and hardness. Also, as juvies some types like to be in groups (of the same species, odd assortments of different species doesn't count), as in at least 5 or 6. It's less important to them as they reach breeding age where they can be quite content as pairs.

What I will say is when conditions go too far south of their needs, they're not as resilient as some species that can put up with a lot of abuse.

 

[notho2000]

SA Geos / Satanoperca / Acarichthys need a reliable, high supply of oxygen. Before I 'wised up', I depended on 'venturi' entrainment of air from powerheads, and surface agitation from external filter returns. After at least 5 geo losses attributed directly to lack of oxygen, I changed things up. Power outages, even for a few seconds may result in filter / powerhead failure to start up. If I unplug a filter or power head there is a very good chance that the impeller won't start turning or a HOB filter may lose its prime. Bottom line ... have an air supply in every tank, air that comes from a good quality air pump. It's a safety valve that will pay dividends. I could never understand some peoples' resistance to having an airstone in their tanks. There are those that resist, and wear that fact like a 'badge of honor'. Lose a few hundred dollars worth of fish and they might change their tune.

 

[notho2000]

I have had ups and downs when it comes to heckelii. One thing about them is they don't handle stress well (bullying, overcrowding, less than optimal water conditions) and will die easily as a result. They can be bullies to conspecifics, so as Duane said, a large tank with some other species present to detract from that will work. I presently have 4 in one 180G tank (~6-8") with a bunch of G. winemilleri, severums (efasciatus and notatus), and a Parrot cichlid. (no problems whatsoever ... so far) and two in another 180G with Chocolates , severums (3 species), Satanoperca daemon and leucosticta, and G. neambi ' Tocantins, with a few Myleus schomburghi as dithers. Same thing ... no problem ... yet. It's like I'm waiting for something bad to happen. Hopefully not.

 

[duanes]

All the Geophagines you have look fabulous Jim, and the group dynamic looks perfect to spread out any aggression.
Somewhat similar to a couple of your power failure events, I had a snail block the influent to my heckelli tank causing a drop in dissolved oxygen, which started the tanks downward spiral. One heckelli and 2 Guianacara bit the dust overnight during the depletion, and I believe the change in hierarchy dynamic later instigated the aggression, that ended up compromising their immune systems, and led to their untimely demise.
Sometimes all it takes is one small blip, and its a slippery slope.

 

[neutrino]

As someone can find in numerous sources and at various levels of technical explanation, the basics of oxygenation are:
dissolved oxygen

Flowing water is more likely to have high dissolved oxygen levels than is stagnant water because of the water movement at the air-water interface. In flowing water, oxygen-rich water at the surface is constantly being replaced by water containing less oxygen as a result of turbulence, creating a greater potential for exchange of oxygen across the air-water interface. Because stagnant water undergoes less internal mixing, the upper layer of oxygen-rich water tends to stay at the surface, resulting in lower dissolved oxygen levels throughout the water column.

An airstone is just one of several effective options for creating turbulence and oxygen exchange and not inherently superior or inferior to some other method, like filter outlfow. The bottom line is the basic factors are water volume, stocking levels, water volume to surface area ratio, and water turbulence are all factors in dissolved oxygen levels. There is absolutely more than one way to balance these to meet the oxygen requirements of your fish. Whether or not this should include an air pump just depends on the particular tank and setup. I have no aversion to airstones and there's no badge or ego attached to whether or not I use one in any particular tank, it just depends on the tank, stocking levels, etc. Most of my tanks do not have one, including my geo tanks, so there's no cosmic law that says a tank without one is doom for your geos. Again, it depends on the overall tank setup and balance.

As for outages, we've had many of them where I live, including one of 10 days and mid 90s daytime temps after the derecho storm a couple of years ago-- and my fish have always done just fine, for one thing because I generally stock my tanks moderately.

I wouldn't presume to say whether or not oxygen levels are a factor in the OP's issues with geos, but what I do know is air pumps/airstones are an option that may or may not be needed in any particular tank.

 

[ryansmith83]

The only time I had a Geo disaster is when my water went weird a few years ago and they developed very fast-acting HITH and crashed. The same happened with several other species of cichlids in various tanks around my house, so it was not specific to the geos.

I've only kept A. heckelii as singles because I heard they were very rough on each other. I can confirm that they stress very easily. My last one bloated and died after being chased around by my Aequidens sp. Jenaro Herrera. It was fine one day, sluggish the next, and dead on the third day. No other fish exhibited symptoms, there was no detectable ammonia/nitrite in the water, and my nitrates were somewhere between 0 - 5ppm, so I chalked it up to stress or bullying.

However, I don't really lump heckelii in with the true geos because they're very different socially and behaviorally, IMO. I've mostly had good luck with geos (G. parnaibae, G. sp. Tapajos, G. winemilleri, G. brachybranchus, etc.) but I only keep them in 6' tanks and always in groups of 4 - 8. I don't do anything special for dissolved oxygen. Both of my larger 6' tanks have a 40 gallon wet-dry filter and a Fluval FX5. I do make sure the returns at least partially break the surface of the water. I don't use airstones or additional powerheads. I just stay on top of water changes (once a week @ 90% or so) and make sure they're not getting crowded or harassed.

I agree with neutrino -- it sounds like you have multiple contributing factors at play here.

Out of curiosity, what are your tank pH/hardness/TDS?