This may be moved but I ask here because I was just feeding my arms,and tats raw deveined shrimp with some smelt chunks.I realized that these foods are not complete when compared to what they would normally eat in the wild.They would normally consume whole fish and shrimp which includes the scales,eyes,entrails and so forth.My fish seem to have a good appearance and are growing well on the diet that I provide for them but this is something that I have been thinking about.Bring on the thoughts and input.
Are we giving our fish enough nutrition?
- Thread starter krichardson
- Start date
My thoughts are No.
I say this because it seems that most all U.S. keepers of large characin preds feed smelt and shrimp. Both are salt water species and have all the entrails removed.
And from the looks of it we U.S. keepers have a hard time growing very large specimens and have alot of problems with payara especially and wasting disease.
It has been shown that nutritional deficiency's can cause wasting disease in animals so IMO it can be a cause in fish as well.
Then we have our brothers across the sea that grow monsters like its nothing. They seem to keep them in what we would consider sub par and small tanks AKA JDM style. And from all the vids you see and from the ones I have talked to they feed mostly goldfish.
My own personal experience
I have been keeping barracuda Ace species since I was 12yrs old now 30. When I was young my parents would not allow extra feeder tanks so the fish etheir died or converted over to whole smelt. I never had one that lived longer than 1-1.5 years. And 95% of the time they just stopped eating and withered away. It could have been parasites or nutritional related.
Once I got my own place I got a few tanks and kept cuda's and then got into payara. Mostly scombs. But I kept on the same routine of training over to dead foods quickly. And lost fish after fish after fish. I think the longest I kept a scomb alive was 2.5yrs. I started treating all my wild caught fish for parasites around 1998 or so. And had limited success doing it. After the treatments I did manage to get a couple of red tail cuda to 9-10" and 3-4yrs old feeding smelt only. But the same old song and dance happened. They all started acting funny/different and stopped eating with in a week of each other. I treated for parasites and they ate again for a couple of weeks. And stopped cold. They lasted a couple of months and died one by one.
What got me on the live food bandwagon was my next fish another scomb. Probably #12-13 for me. I had it a year or so and it stopped eating very well. Just a piece of smelt here and there but not consistent. One day it was laying almost on its side breathing real slow. I moved it to a hospital tank and treated it with every med known to man out of frustration over the past dozen dieing. After a few days of treatment I placed a few minnows in the tank to try and entice it to eat again because I knew a 5" juvie could not last very long with out something. The scomb slowly picked off the minnows one by one over the next week. Since it was eating I moved it back to its main tank. But I kept feeding live minnows. And since that time I have never had a characin stop eating and die.
I have lost many many more from tank problems galore or them jumping out of the tank, but never to wasting disease.
It got to the point where I could tell when it was coming. Alot of the times payara's will get cloudy eyes like from an injury and stop eating cold in there tracks then there breathing slows. Then once they lay over 99.9% of the time there done. Cuda's will stop eating and become very flighty or skittish just scared of everything. And they will go for a couple months sometimes but sooner or later you find them on the bottom with no eye movement but breathing. There done in a day or so.
I have no actual proof that its nutritional related or if its parasitic related. But I try to do my best at keeping both under control.
I feed live food only to all my preds. Etheir fat head minnow's, goldfish, platy's, guppies, convicts. I treat every new batch of feeders for parasites and fungus. And I treat all my pred tanks 2x yearly for parasites.
It may just be luck and superstition for me. But I don't care cause so far so good.
I say this because it seems that most all U.S. keepers of large characin preds feed smelt and shrimp. Both are salt water species and have all the entrails removed.
And from the looks of it we U.S. keepers have a hard time growing very large specimens and have alot of problems with payara especially and wasting disease.
It has been shown that nutritional deficiency's can cause wasting disease in animals so IMO it can be a cause in fish as well.
Then we have our brothers across the sea that grow monsters like its nothing. They seem to keep them in what we would consider sub par and small tanks AKA JDM style. And from all the vids you see and from the ones I have talked to they feed mostly goldfish.
My own personal experience
I have been keeping barracuda Ace species since I was 12yrs old now 30. When I was young my parents would not allow extra feeder tanks so the fish etheir died or converted over to whole smelt. I never had one that lived longer than 1-1.5 years. And 95% of the time they just stopped eating and withered away. It could have been parasites or nutritional related.
Once I got my own place I got a few tanks and kept cuda's and then got into payara. Mostly scombs. But I kept on the same routine of training over to dead foods quickly. And lost fish after fish after fish. I think the longest I kept a scomb alive was 2.5yrs. I started treating all my wild caught fish for parasites around 1998 or so. And had limited success doing it. After the treatments I did manage to get a couple of red tail cuda to 9-10" and 3-4yrs old feeding smelt only. But the same old song and dance happened. They all started acting funny/different and stopped eating with in a week of each other. I treated for parasites and they ate again for a couple of weeks. And stopped cold. They lasted a couple of months and died one by one.
What got me on the live food bandwagon was my next fish another scomb. Probably #12-13 for me. I had it a year or so and it stopped eating very well. Just a piece of smelt here and there but not consistent. One day it was laying almost on its side breathing real slow. I moved it to a hospital tank and treated it with every med known to man out of frustration over the past dozen dieing. After a few days of treatment I placed a few minnows in the tank to try and entice it to eat again because I knew a 5" juvie could not last very long with out something. The scomb slowly picked off the minnows one by one over the next week. Since it was eating I moved it back to its main tank. But I kept feeding live minnows. And since that time I have never had a characin stop eating and die.
I have lost many many more from tank problems galore or them jumping out of the tank, but never to wasting disease.
It got to the point where I could tell when it was coming. Alot of the times payara's will get cloudy eyes like from an injury and stop eating cold in there tracks then there breathing slows. Then once they lay over 99.9% of the time there done. Cuda's will stop eating and become very flighty or skittish just scared of everything. And they will go for a couple months sometimes but sooner or later you find them on the bottom with no eye movement but breathing. There done in a day or so.
I have no actual proof that its nutritional related or if its parasitic related. But I try to do my best at keeping both under control.
I feed live food only to all my preds. Etheir fat head minnow's, goldfish, platy's, guppies, convicts. I treat every new batch of feeders for parasites and fungus. And I treat all my pred tanks 2x yearly for parasites.
It may just be luck and superstition for me. But I don't care cause so far so good.
Very good input,but I expected nothing less from you hybridtheory.I think I may order minnows in the near future to use as their staple.I like your parasite advice but how would I do this with my fish in a big tank?hybridtheoryd16;3917191; said:
Kinda funny this pops up... I've been debating this for the last 3 weeks. My Armatus die first every year. Mine are usually some of the first to be converted every year. The only big ones grown over here seem to be fed pellet stuffed. I keep hoping to get them up to a foot so they can begin taking whole smelt rather then cleaned. This sucks for me cause I don't feel comfy feeding live with rays in the tank. My biggest Armatus was the 1st one. Coincidently it was fed live much longer then the others. I think maybe I'll go pick up some feeders tomorrow lmao. Guess it's time for me to open a whole new chapter on the way I keep some of my fish. Gonna have to QT or freeze feeders. I think I'll be switching to natives for feeders. Seign enough in the summer to freeze and hopefully last through the winter. All I know is after all I've been through with Armatus I am desperate enough to try anything.
krichardson;3917334; said:
Yea man I went thru alot of heartache before converting my style to live feedings. And since I have seen things improve greatly I am kind of out spoken about it. LOL
But I use jungle labs parasite clear tabs. They contain 4 meds in one easy to use tablet form. Each tab treats 10g and 8 tabs come in a box for about 3-4 bucks. So i just buy 2 boxes for each of my 125g tanks. With the sumps water capacity it works out about right.
So 2 box's can treat 150g tanks for 8bucks
3 box's can treat 240g tanks for 12bucks
And best of all parasite meds have no effect on your tanks biological filtration. And I have yet to find a fish that was stressed by jungle parasite clear.
I moved to whole dead foods, specifically whitebait, usually chopped up into managable chunks. I'm not sure if 'whitebait' translates well to the US readers, but basically they are whole fish that are generally fried and eaten whole in the uk (by people). They are usually between 2 and 4" in size when whole, hence chopping them into three bits but I must say, that all my fish seem very happy eating it. Best thing, a 1kg bag is only £3.00 and will last over a month which is much better than the prepared crap I can buy from my LFS.
I guess we have to bear in mind that dedicated peiscovores will obtain their necessary nutrition from injesting whole fish including endtrails and the food that they were in the process of digesting. Prepared prawn/shrim has certain nutritional value, as does prepared fish meat but it doesn't carry the same components. My personal opinion is that the food doesn't necessarily have to be live, but at the very least it should be whole/ contain sufficient 'components'.
I guess we have to bear in mind that dedicated peiscovores will obtain their necessary nutrition from injesting whole fish including endtrails and the food that they were in the process of digesting. Prepared prawn/shrim has certain nutritional value, as does prepared fish meat but it doesn't carry the same components. My personal opinion is that the food doesn't necessarily have to be live, but at the very least it should be whole/ contain sufficient 'components'.
What about feeding pellets like Massivore into their diet? I feed a steady diet of shrimp tilapia and beefheart. Only a few of my fish will take the pellets so I have to load them into the shrimp in order for the fish to take them. The only time I would ever feed live foods is if it is a new fish and hasn't eaten for a few weeks. My fish seem to grow steady and look as healthy as can be besides the nipped fins due to aggression
This is a really good read. Using the information given in this report I have noticed better growth and colour in my fish. The bulk of the food I feed is Trout meat as it is very cheap in a UK store 'Morrisons'. I usually add pellets and flakes of various types into the meat to increase the nutritional value. You can't beat engineered foods for nutrients especially when they are added to lumps of protein. It's suprising how much green stuff is consumed. Theres also a great artical in the latest Tropical fish hobbyist (I have a digital Supscription, It's great) in regards to the diet of large predatory fish.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm
Balls! Whitebait isn't brilliant then as it's likley to have lots of Thiamin. I was hoping that as a whole fish, it was much better for them.
Ok, so this leaves me looknig for an alternative. Whilst the wolves and brycon aren't fussy, I will struggle to migrate the Tat to something else- it really seems to focus on the eyes more than anything else...
Ok, so this leaves me looknig for an alternative. Whilst the wolves and brycon aren't fussy, I will struggle to migrate the Tat to something else- it really seems to focus on the eyes more than anything else...
This is something I've heard before and have been meaning to try-pellet stuffed shrimp.My payara will take freeze dried krill from the surface but they ignore the floating pellets,just thought I'd try it.I've never bothered with beef heart although I've heard of it over the years.jsodwi;3920563; said: