Are we keeping our cichlids too warm!

[RD.]

The UK has nothing on Northwestern Canada. And at -44, it doesn't matter if it's Fahrenheit or Celsius, it's freakin cold! lol

I personally don't think that a fish suffers, if kept at a middle ground temp, somewhere between what would be found in winter, vs summer. That is typically how I run my tanks, and this seems to work best especially if the tanks are mixed species (gasp), or mixed continents (double gasp). I recalled an old thread on cichlidae on Herichthys, and the temp that one individual kept his carpintis male. https://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5919

I don't agree with that, anymore than I agree with keeping that species at 80F year round. A fish kept in cooler water, fed less, and that lives longer does not necessarily equate to a healthier, or happier (fill in the anthropomorphic blank) life.

 

[Stanzzzz7]

The UK has nothing on Northwestern Canada. And at -44, it doesn't matter if it's Fahrenheit or Celsius, it's freakin cold! lol

I personally don't think that a fish suffers, if kept at a middle ground temp, somewhere between what would be found in winter, vs summer. That is typically how I run my tanks, and this seems to work best especially if the tanks are mixed species (gasp), or mixed continents (double gasp). I recalled an old thread on cichlidae on Herichthys, and the temp that one individual kept his carpintis male. https://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5919

I don't agree with that, anymore than I agree with keeping that species at 80F year round. A fish kept in cooler water, fed less, and that lives longer does not necessarily equate to a healthier, or happier (fill in the anthropomorphic blank) life.

RD, I'm not suggesting keeping fish too cold,I'm just curious if most Google searches for a particular fish state higher temps in general than they average in nature? Some of the areas I've looked into for a particular species suggest that they do.
Do you think this is generally the case for most species?

 

[neutrino]

Neutrino,

Did you have a reference for Bleher's observations, online or was it in one of his books?

Various places, really, books, articles by him, he also has a website and he posts on some forums. Took some doing to remember and find an easily accessible reference:
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/what-temperature-is-the-water-where-discus-live?rq=bleher discus

Not saying I'd keep discus at the low temps he lists for some of their wild locations, but my point was their wild habitat (including pH) is more varied than many suspect, and at least S. aequifasciatus (what he seems to call haraldi) is more adaptable in the wild than many suspect. Bleher's use of nomenclature in his PFK articles is confusing. Taxonomic lists, etc. I've seen have S. discus (heckle), S. tarzoo (green discus), and S. aequifasciatus as blue/brown discus.

 

[jaws7777]

A lot of it is from memory after researching various biotopes.
Research gate is a good source of info and have many detailed pdf files on the rivers of Mexico.
I also know a guy who I used to get a lot of fish off who is friends with Rusty Wessel . I used to pick his brains a lot for info.

Thx brother. Im more interested in africa lol i'll come to you and rd for anything on this continent.

Briefly searching google and having yielded much. But thx again

 

[RD.]

Do you think this is generally the case for most species?

Not in my experience, but I suppose it depends on how one is using google, and how rare the area or species of fish is. For most of the relatively common species they have been collected and/or studied by enough people, over enough years, that finding seasonal water parameter values shouldn't be a big issue. Certainly not something that one can always find on google in a just a few short minutes, but I think that generally speaking the correct info is out there if one is dedicated enough to put the effort in to look. Quality research isn't always easy, and it can often be very time consuming, but imagine what it was like 30+ yrs ago, when the internet wasn't around for the average hobbyist. The only problem that I see is that now it can be so easy, that many people expect instant gratification for everything! lol The problem is that first link on a google search may take you to some guys blog who hasn't been out of his basement in 5 yrs, and knows nothing other than what he has read online.
Unfortunately that is sometimes the exact kind of sloppy information that gets repeated on various forums, until it almost becomes fact.

 

[duanes]

One of the relevant issues in recording collection temps, may be that expeditions to many countries to collect fish, tend to happen at the same time every year, the "dry season" where depth is low, when fish are easiest to catch, and where water temps, may be at their highest... so... if only recording a temp in Jan or Feb during the dry season, and stating this is how a certain species lives, it may give a false sense of what average temps may be.
I have lived in Panama for almost 3 years now, (year round) and will admit I now have a changed idea of (from previous ideas) and much wider view of what might be considered average water temp, even here so near the equator. Though dry season temps may be in the low 80s, wet season water temps, when rivers cascade and rage off the mountains, may be 10 or more degree lower.

And not only temp changes may be relevant. Lake Gatun may have a pH of up to 9 in the dry season, but pH may drop below 7 in the wet season.
Same with nitrate, and any other component of water chemistry.

 

[RD.]

That's very true Duane, seasonal values are certainly not consistent in most habitats. Again, it depends a lot on the species, and how much research/data has been collected on that species. There is still a lot of research that can be gleaned from the internet that provides both rainy season, and dry season data.

Your example is a good reason of why sometimes middle of the road parameters are perhaps more ideal over the life of a fish.

 

[neutrino]

And not only temp changes may be relevant. Lake Gatun may have a pH of up to 9 in the dry season, but pH may drop below 7 in the wet season.
Same with nitrate, and any other component of water chemistry.

Exactly, and studies have been done for some habitats and their native fish concerning their tolerance for pH changes, including rapid pH changes in some cases, and it's surprising the changes and swings some fish can handle. Naturally, species and habitats vary and some species are more sensitive than others, but some of the solemn forum posts to the effect that temperature or pH must be absolutely steady or precisely matched to wild habitat or there will be dire consequences come from 'experts' who aren't aware of the wild and diverse habitats for some species, the cycles within a habitat, or the adaptability of some of the fish they're talking about.

Not to say throw caution and care to the winds or that some species aren't more sensitive than others, but many of the fish we keep are fairly forgiving-- within reason. One exception for some species is they depend on certain conditions for spawning or their fry depend on certain conditions, so for some species success in keeping them and success in breeding aren't always the same thing.

 

[neutrino]

That's very true Duane, seasonal values are certainly not consistent in most habitats. Again, it depends a lot on the species, and how much research/data has been collected on that species. There is still a lot of research that can be gleaned from the internet that provides both rainy season, and dry season data.

Your example is a good reason of why sometimes middle of the road parameters are perhaps more ideal over the life of a fish.

This has worked for me for many species, especially regarding pH and hardness. Temperatures I tend to vary more between tanks, for example I keep C. gibberosa 'kapampa' in the mid 70s, some of the SA I have in the upper 70s, when I had discus I kept them over 80, all within their normal temperature ranges, but not at the upper end.

I've been through a lot of power outages where I live, and you learn something about tolerance for temperature drops. Some years ago we had a two day outage in winter, temps in tanks dipped just below 70. Kapampa laid low but it didn't bother them, similar with the Malawi cichlids I had at the time (some were mildly stressed), it stressed the severums I had but they recovered to normal in a couple of days, I suspect it would have been worse with the sevs had it lasted longer.

 

[duanes]

One of the most interesting studies I came across recently was done for sport fishermen on Lake Arenal in Costa Rica.
Where it was found that large dovii were most active in the lake when temps were in the mid 60sF.
I doubt most dovii keepers would even consider anything lower the the 70s for their tanks.