Are you doing it right? GRENADE :-))

[DB junkie]

Every situation is so different that applying general statements to ray keeping just gives people things to argue about.....

Some of my long term frustration stems from years of rebuilding filtration for no reason. I thought it was the source of my troubles. Now looking back I'm probably better off blaming the water. See, when I started keeping rays water intervention was frowned upon, seems to still be. Everyone preached anything that fell out of the tap was just fine to use. Well, I disagree with that train of thought. Most hobbyists did not have the same mindset so I consulted Webber as I had no idea who else to reach out to cause any hobbyist I talked to simply "Didn't have those problems". He wasn't amazed my rays bred in it, he was amazed they were able to live in it.

So fast forward many years and the house I'm living in is in my name so I'm finally able to persue water intervention. I started using a mix of RO and tap. This was the ony way I was able to stop the losses after I moved. I think we lost 16 rays in our move.

I now store RO and tap water. I have 2 water change "stations" (one for upper basement one for lower basement) that consist of several hundred gallons worth of verticle storage containers that pump feed my larger systems.

I used to rely on "drip systems" now you'd have to pay me to run one, and if I did it would be of water I made..... I no longer have any trust in municiple water at all. Other hobbysists seem to have no troubles with thier source water, BUT they don't live where I do, and I'd be lying through my teeth if I sat here and said I didn't think it has something to do with the farming here...... Most ray keepers in Iowa have suffered the same strange losses for no reason that I had for many years. Always seemed to have issues/losses a few times a year, around planting and harvesting. Can I prove it? Nope, but talking with fellow hobbysists around here was enough for me. There's usually reason for coincidence.

As far as the filtration part - I will continue to revise year after year in pursuit of something better, I believe I'm close to being happy with what I'm running, but until I have radial flow seperators on everything in addition to what I have now I won't be finished......

I fix things for a living. It's in my blood. Been workign on cars for 20 years now. I take great pride in improvement, and would like to think that looking at the systems I run today vs 10 years ago show this. IF it wasn't for the joy I get from improvement I would have left this hobby many many years ago, but I stay in cause someday I'll be happy with my work, but until then it's pitter patter. We moved 2.5 years ago. I'm hoping by year 3 everything will finally be running smooth and I might be able to finally start seeing the hard work pay off.

 

[Matteus]

Thank you for sharing this. From what you just described, you have not failed at ray keeping as much as previously mentioned. You have learned things that do not “always” work.

I always teach my staff about situational awareness. What works on this site may not work on another site. And being a leader you need to figure out the difference first, which can be painful, so you can show the next person how to do it with out your pain. Build a legacy not an empire.

I like the saying that we keep water not fish. When you are dealt such a ****ty hand out of the tap, there is no other choice than to intervene. I am moving to the other side of the country some time in the new year. I have already started to connect with the local fish club in order to find out what the typical water is like where I am going. I keep saying to my wife that everything is going on a drip system when we get there. Looks like I need to dig a bit deeper before I assume it will be safe. I’ll be pretty choked if I lose my albinos after all the time and work I have and will be putting in because local water is so bad.

my new location is also smack dab in Agro culture as well so I will need to keep an eye out. I don’t think you are too far off about the spring run off. I have a friend who I help take care of his tank and one day after a wc all his fish started dying and we were lost. Checked the tds and it was through the roof. So now we carbon filter it before it even gets to the mixing/ prep drum where we treat the water before adding it to his tank. The water goes through 2 filters before we even treat it.

 

[RD.]

Every situation is so different that applying general statements to ray keeping just gives people things to argue about.....

I think that this is possibly the best advice given in this thread. I find that some folks in this hobby are extremists, and while they may have the best of intentions sometimes their own personal bugaboos are not as black/white as they make them appear to the masses.

As an example, Matteus , if I was you Matt I would not run tank temps as low as DavidW suggested in his initial post, nor would I fluctuate them between day/night. At the same time I would not keep them at high temps. Find a middle ground where they will still have somewhat of an elevated metabolism while they are young, it will help boost their immune system, and keep them eating on a consistent basis. You can always drop temps when your fish are more mature, and stronger.

Also Matt, typically a sudden rise in TDS is far less stressful to a fish, than a sudden drop. The drop in TDS can cause osmotic stress, and even death. The opposite is generally not an issue when going from soft to hard. This is why importers in Calgary that bring in SA fish, including numerous species of WC rays over the years, don't typically ever have any issues. If you read up on osmoregulatory stress you will understand the difference, and why many SA species, including rays, are seldom an issue in Calgary water. Plenty of people keep rays healthy & breeding, producing healthy pups, in water that is rock hard. One of the earlier posters in this thread, Scott (skynoch) kept & bred numerous rays in Drayton Valley water, which is about as hard as it gets. His tanks & rays were impressive.

So to add different spin on your friends tank - perhaps there was an event such as a repair that took place in that area, without either of you being aware? A spike in sediment from a repair, or break, or a spike in chlorine/chloramine along with some potential nastiness in the water could also cause a spike in TDS, and serious issues in many aquatic species. The TDS may have simply been a clue to something far sinister going on behind the scenes. Most water municipalities don't advertise the fact when something goes sideways. To the city of Calgary human health is always #1, not pet fish.

One additional thing that I will add, while keep water clean is essential for all species of fish, so is keeping ones filtration system clean. The idea of clean water is keeping the bacteria count low, and parameters stable, which isn't going to happen unless one also keeps their filter media clean & healthy.

 

[DB junkie]

RD. - Reading your reply would lead me to believe I'd be better off keeping rays in hard water then water that is softer, closer to thier natural habitat.......

Most of the hobbyists I've spoke with seem to experience the same pattern degregation when keeping in hard water. Ive watched rays on several occasions change pattern going from owner to owner and sure seems they turn darker in harder water.....

Do you know of Canadian captive bred in hard water rays that would be ideal examples of thier species? Centerfold rays if you will.... Seems most of these "centerfold" looking rays are kept in softer closer to thier natural habitat water??? Or am I way off here?

 

[DB junkie]

There seems to be some awful conflicting info here, as I used to buy rays from a guy in Minnesota that ran PURE RO water in everything as it was necessary to minimilize losses. He imported from South America and Thailand primarely. Swore anything that hit his water died until he started using RO.... I saw with my own eyes swimming dead rays. Or at least they would have been in my water, hip bones ready to pop through the skin, craters in thier foreheads and they'd last weeks like that. He at least had the opportunity to save them with RO. With the tap he used to run they wouldn't last more then a few days.

 

[Matteus]

I think what Neil is referring to here is that the transition from hard to soft is the hard or sensitive part for the ray. Not the actual fact of living in one is necessarily bad or good. Almost like if you have a fish in cooler water you can just drop them into warmer water no issues. But if you have a fish in warmer water you need to gradually lower the temp or else it will shock the fish and cause it extreme stress.

correct me if I’m wrong Neil. I think it is that transition that needs to be Subtle or gradually achieved rather than just dump it in and wonder Why the fish isn’t doing well.

so it makes me wonder if the hard water that DB junkie has would have been fine on its own. But something else within the tds that is far more sinister such as elevated chlorine chloramines etc...?????

 

[Matteus]

RD. - Reading your reply would lead me to believe I'd be better off keeping rays in hard water then water that is softer, closer to thier natural habitat.......

Most of the hobbyists I've spoke with seem to experience the same pattern degregation when keeping in hard water. Ive watched rays on several occasions change pattern going from owner to owner and sure seems they turn darker in harder water.....

Do you know of Canadian captive bred in hard water rays that would be ideal examples of thier species? Centerfold rays if you will.... Seems most of these "centerfold" looking rays are kept in softer closer to thier natural habitat water??? Or am I way off here?

I’ll show you some Canadian centre folds when I learn how to breed them ??. Will need to wait a few years I guess lol

 

[RD.]

Just like the temperature changes in their natural water, many fish also experience shifts in pH, TDS, etc, in those same natural waterways. Here is a recent thread where a few members were discussing that topic, regarding SA cichlids.

South American habitat-- river types

When it comes to water conditions, too much credence is often given to clichés of region as opposed to specific habitats. This includes the notion that African = high pH, hard water and South America = low pH, soft water. Some understand the mistake in this and know that: a) not all African...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

I'm not an expert on anything, including rays, but I have certainly seen my fair share of healthy rays, breeding and producing healthy pups, in our local tap water, which is hard, with a pH of approx 8.0 year round.

Centerfold?

Below is a group shot taken in a friends tank years back. Some of you might remember Brett Boyd aka boydo.

 

[RD.]

From back around the same period, another local friends ray, one of the nicest motoro that I think I have seen in person. The camera couldn't capture his striking color. Beautiful fish that he unfortunately later loss due to equipment failure.

Is this what you mean by pattern degradation?

 

[RD.]

I took the following pic over 10 yrs ago, with a crappy old $20 point & shoot, so excuse the photo quality.
Another one of Brett's rays, that grew to be thick & healthy in his 550 comm tank. Again, kept in our local hard tap water with pH of 8.0