B&W Sunfish ID #5

[sandtiger]

You really shouldn't have used this fish. It's from such a narrow intergrade zone; it's really not fair. Beside that, the key has errors I've just noticed about fin color (has factual statements reversed) and I'm guessing this is a key for species present in Alabama only.

I realize that this fish could be an intergrade and questioned using it but I also feel that this fish could have successfully been identified. I don't feel that this is unfair, no more unfair than the dollar sunfish which it virtually identical to a longear unless you have it in hand. I realize it could be a redspotted, spotted or combination of both and in the end I would have explained that to the participants. All well.
As for the key, are you referring to the one in the link? I was unaware of any errors with it, that's a real shame.

Yes people, I did just say what the fish was. This will be the last ID I do, I'm running out of sunfishes to post as I only have eight species and I think y'all get the point and understand the method used to properly ID them.

 

[JDS]

Gosh, that's a tough one. Let's see...

Three anal fin spines, so it's Lepomis or Enneacanthus.

Bilobed caudal fin, so it's Lepomis.

Short rounded pectoral, which rules out bluegill, p'seed, o-spot, and shellcracker.

Lateral line scales about 35 (hard to count, though) and mouth pretty large, so it's not a bantam, longear, dollar, spotted, or redspotted.

That brings us down to warmouth, green, and redbreast. The tall body, long black opercular tab, and lack of facial markings rule out warmouth and green, so...

It's a redbreast (Lepomis auritus)!

Isn't it?


I have to admit I totally missed the northern longear one, so...yeah.

+1

 

[JIM]

Woah !!! Is it a red spot ??? and is the key really inaccurate, It took me directly to redspot which i thought it was before i looked, I dont really intend to get into trying to ID off the wall sunfish too much and i think what SandTiger has done so far has helped me a lot. Do we need to look elsewhere for ID than the key??

 

[sandtiger]

I just spent some time looking for another key but couldn't find one. I think the key in the link is the best you're going to find on the internet, for better ones you'll have to look through books. Perhaps Teleost knows of a better key, I don't.

 

[Noto]

Nuts, I misread the lateral line scale count in the key (I was using a different key, not the online one).

If any one cares, the key I was using was the one from Fishes of Tennessee by Etnier and Starnes. It covers all of the Lepomis species but doesn't separate L. punctatus from L. miniatus. It's a good key, I just misread it.

 

[teleost]

The key is ignoring:
Enneacanthus chaetodon
Lepomis gibbosus
Lepomis punctatus
Lepomis symmetricus
Ambloplites constellatus
Ambloplites cavifrons

This leads me to believe this might be a key based on fishes of Alabama but Alabama has Lepomis punctatus. I've not scoured the key for other typos.

the key states: [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]14b. Lateral scale rows usually 40 or less; body relatively deep, its depth (A) greater than distance from tip of snout to front of dorsal fin (B); snout short, its length (C) going two or more times into distance from back of eye to front edge of opercular tab (D); dorsal, anal, and caudal fins without distinct yellowish-white border.
red spotted sunfish
Lepomis miniatus[/FONT]

Lepomis punctatus has dark (black) spotsfar onto their head (and males not colorful like L. miniatus) L. miniatus has distinct red spots (and no dark spots on head) and a light border on unpaired fins.

In short, if you find a sunfish (usually along with sluggish waters and vegitation) with black spots that travel from the nape to the head, I'd concentrate on Lepomis punctatus as the liekly fish. On the otherhand, if the fish is found in similar habitat and has red spots along with a white border on unpaired fins, Lepomis miniatus is a slam dunk. In your case the fish has both dark spots on head and nape as well as red spots and white border on unpaired fins. I might not always follow the keys and it just so happens your fish exhibits both the characteristic sets I use for these fish.

As far as Lepomis marginatus....If you find it in a marsh/swamp or similarly vegitated backwater, it looks like a longear with flecks on it's opercle, I would focus on Lepomis marginatus as the likely fish. Lepomis megalotis are really not a swamp fish usually.

 

[sandtiger]

And he says hes not an expert...

It really disappoints me that the key is flawed, I did try it out myself but for the species I tried to key out it worked, I was also under the assumption that the key included all Centrarchidae species; the site is called "The Centrarchid Project" after all. Unfortunately this only drives home the importance of books, IDing fish on the web dosen't seem to cut it and the right tools just aren't there or if they are they're difficult to find.
Anyway, for the record my intention was not to stump anyone with this ID and I would have accepted spotted or redspotted as a correct answer either way. One of the reasons for this is because I realize that most books are to dated to recognize the redspotted as a separate species from the spotted. Like Noto said, Fishes of Tennessee dosen't, nor does the Peterson field guide. Because of this I wasen't going to get to picky about it in this thread.

For what its worth here is a color photo of the fish in question.

 

[MN_Rebel]

Well its time to update the Peterson Guide Field to Freshwater Fishes! That means another book add to the shelf.

 

[teleost]

I know you weren't trying to stump anybody and no harm but I'll explain a little why this fish is interesting/odd. At one time (not all that long ago) Lepomis punctatus Spotted Sunfish and Lepomis miniatus Redspotted Sunfish were considered the same fish. I'm using "Fishes of Alabama" (Mayden) as reference. Mayden defines an intergrade zone in essentially SE alabama north to TN into western GA. Basically L. miniatus to the west and L. puntatus to the east and this intergrade zone where the two species are muddled. Sandtiger's fish was collected from body of water right on the westerly edge of the line that Mayden indicates in his book as an intergrade zone. This is the likely explanation for why his fish looks mostly like miniatus but has some of the punctatus look to him. I sure wish I had good photos showing all of them.

Well, really this fish isn't odd or interesting at all but rather what questions might pop into your head when start to think about broad intergrade zones and what to do with them. Hundreds of other questions....

Anyhow Fishes of Alabama is a pretty neat book (all 736 large pages) and Alabama has a whole mess of neat fish to learn about. If you still have some Christmas cash burning a hole in your pocket, it's worth the money.

*edit to add: when referencing the the above mentioned book, I see depending on what you want to call the intergrade fish, punctatus really isn't in Alabama so I'd guess the key that's pinned at the top is meant for use on Alabama fishes.

 

[sandtiger]

"Fishes of Alabama" is definitely on my list, ideally I'll eventually have a state book for every state that has one but the Alabama book is a pretty high priority for me, it looks great.