Bad practices at LFS?

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Not to rain on anyone's parade, but my personal experiences with this fish closely match the OP's of the following past thread.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/the-ebjd-my-experience-beautiful-but.446610/

A local that also bought one from Rapp's order the same time as mine got his to a solid 8-9", and just like the OP in thread above one day it was swimming and eating, all good, next day dead and belly up. I don't believe that it was even 3 yrs old? They are a beautiful fish, no argument there, but in my opinion they are a genetic weakling.
 
They are sensitive to anything less than perfect water quality,and should not be fed commercially prepared foods until older.
 
RD. said:
....... says the person who admits that they have limited experience, and is also new at breeding them. No offense amigo, just sayin.

I've been following this strain since it first hit the NA market many years ago, and I have also owned one (purchased from one of Rapps first orders), as have other local hobbyists that I know. Few of them made it to adulthood, those that did died not long after. Those specimens were imported from the late Hector Luzardo's facility, and poor water conditions had nothing to do with their early demise. In fact, most of the members of this forum typically stop showing pictures of their EBJD at the 5-6" mark. Out of the scores of juvie pics posted over the years, I can't recall the last time someone on this forum posted a pic of 8-10" EBJD. The simple fact is that most designer stains are genetically weak fish, discus, flowerhorn, EBJD, etc. Over the course of many years, and many breedings, by many individuals, EBJD have proven to not be genetically strong fish.
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This post makes me sad, I am hoping to be one of those people who don’t stop posting pics, I want them to be healthy and readily available!!

The EBJD I am choosing to keep is just a smidge larger than 3” and he looks super healthy, very active and personalable. Though I am not experienced with them much either. It seems like they do not cope with change very well, I have moved two into another tank and they have been timid ever since...you maybe right, though I’m hoping not
 
They are sensitive to anything less than perfect water quality,and should not be fed commercially prepared foods until older.
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Commercially prepared food is fine, even at small sizes. When Rapp's was ordering these in years ago he fed them catfish farm feed, with no issues. I suspect that the large scale breeders also have them on commercial feed long before they are being exported.
 
No offence taken RD.

I do however find it interesting that you choose to discredit my opinion based on having one of them from what I can conclude must have been quite some time ago. I did state that I am relatively new to them and that is relative to those who I know of who have been working with them for as many as ten years. I too have been doing a lot of reading, as well as communicating with current breeders, and keeping them myself - although only for about 2 1/2 years.

I believe that through intraspecific hybridization some of the breeders have been producing lines of them with significantly more hybrid vigor than what was seen when they first arrived in the aquarium trade. I know of at least one breeder who has been cross breeding with wild Jack Dempseys so that we can have stronger strains of them available. With livestock it is common to inbreed for a specific desired gene to be expressed and inbreeding will produce "a genetic weakling." I imagine this to be the case when the EBJD was discovered or developed. Over time breeders are able to strengthen their line by breeding back the traits they desire. Might I dare suggest that we may be beyond the "genetic weakling stage" with some of the lines of breeding that are available today?

Babyblue - don't get discouraged with your desire to keep EBJD. Make it a goal as others have done to strengthen the stain.
 
My opinion was not simply based on my personal experience of keeping a single EBJD many years ago. And outcrossing with wild stock was also taking place years ago. Wild stock, wild type aquarium stock, same thing with regards to outcrossing - unless your friends have genetic see through glasses.

I think you also missed the part where I stated: Out of the scores of juvie pics posted over the years, I can't recall the last time someone on this forum posted a pic of 8-10" EBJD. Keep in mind that over the years, here, is over a decade for me, personally. So scores of people just like you & Babyblue, most if not all come and gone, with no pics of their stunning vibrant healthy adult, EBJD. I'm not referring to just the early fish that came from Hector Luzardo's facility, not even close. Please feel free to prove me wrong, show me all these 8-10" adults that with their newly improved hybrid vigor are living a normal JD lifespan of 8-10 years. I guess we will all just have to wait.......

One can breed back the traits they want until they are blue in the face, at the end of the day they are also breeding back via inbreeding the negative traits that come with this particular recessive gene/s.

Good luck
 
RD. said:
My opinion was not simply based on my personal experience of keeping a single EBJD many years ago. And outcrossing with wild stock was also taking place years ago. Wild stock, wild type aquarium stock, same thing with regards to outcrossing - unless your friends have genetic see through glasses.

I think you also missed the part where I stated: Out of the scores of juvie pics posted over the years, I can't recall the last time someone on this forum posted a pic of 8-10" EBJD. Keep in mind that over the years, here, is over a decade for me, personally. So scores of people just like you & Babyblue, most if not all come and gone, with no pics of their stunning vibrant healthy adult, EBJD. I'm not referring to just the early fish that came from Hector Luzardo's facility, not even close. Please feel free to prove me wrong, show me all these 8-10" adults that with their newly improved hybrid vigor are living a normal JD lifespan of 8-10 years. I guess we will all just have to wait.......

One can breed back the traits they want until they are blue in the face, at the end of the day they are also breeding back via inbreeding the negative traits that come with this particular recessive gene/s.

Good luck
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I actually have to agree with you on the scores of people who come and post pics of their EBJDs and then disappear, never to see an adult picture...and when you google adult EBJDs it’s the same several pictures that have always been around....nothing to recent.

I’m not discouraged per-say....I am going to try this out and give it a fair shot, if this batch dies for whatever reasons then I will be done....I’m pretty dedicated to these guys and maintaining water quality...when I previously kept an ebjd I was not so diligent with water changes...so here’s to hoping!
 
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It's all good, I'm certainly not trying to discourage anyone from keeping them, or breeding them. As stated previously, they are a beautiful fish.
 
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