Its as simple as this. No one buys them and no one will sell them, the more people who buy them then the more will be bred. Probably freakier each time a new type of fish is designed/bred.
Balloon-fish, Glo-fish, short bodies - where does it end?
- Thread starter FJB
- Start date
Its as simple as this. No one buys them and no one will sell them, the more people who buy them then the more will be bred. Probably freakier each time a new type of fish is designed/bred.
The scary part is...that probably is one of the good-looking specimens.
First it was colour varieties...then long-fins...then short-bodies, balloons and other cull fish. Personally, I find them all disgusting.
Probably the worst facet of this lunacy is the proliferation of hybrids. You can't read through the new posts here on MFK without coming across a couple of threads in which keepers are rubbing their hands with glee because their ABC cichlid has paired up with their XYZ cichlid. Fish can't even be ID'd because their questionable heritage is impossible to guess. Pure species are becoming a thing of the past.
I wonder how many of today's fish designers have even heard of the concept of ethical, responsible breeding practices.
But, as J Joshuakahan and
Ogertron3000
noted, if it sells...somebody will produce it.
Can't forget the whole duck faced TSN x RTC craze going around lately. No clue why anyone would want a fish that almost has to be hand fed in order to properly eat.
Honestly I agree with everything else besides the hybrid part. Hybrids imo are just fine as long as they are sold as such and aren't given some stupid coiner name just to get ppl to buy it. Also a major underlining problem with hybrids is that most ppl just won't cull hybrid fry if they don't want them, they just sell em instead.The scary part is...that probably is one of the good-looking specimens.
First it was colour varieties...then long-fins...then short-bodies, balloons and other cull fish. Personally, I find them all disgusting.
Probably the worst facet of this lunacy is the proliferation of hybrids. You can't read through the new posts here on MFK without coming across a couple of threads in which keepers are rubbing their hands with glee because their ABC cichlid has paired up with their XYZ cichlid. Fish can't even be ID'd because their questionable heritage is impossible to guess. Pure species are becoming a thing of the past.
I wonder how many of today's fish designers have even heard of the concept of ethical, responsible breeding practices.
But, as J Joshuakahan and
If ya don't want your fish making hybrid fry either separate them or cull the fry, it's as simple as that, but too many ppl just see it as a way of making a quick buck in exchange for something they don't want in the first place.
Honestly tho, I think it's a bit of an over reaction to say that hybrids are ruining the market. While yes you do have those ppl that don't care about being truthful about what they are selling, and yes I would say those ppl are ruining the market, but the hybrid fish have done nothing other then just live their lives. Ya really can't blame the fish for ruining the market when in all reality it's the liars and con-artists that are ruining the market just for the sake of making some extra cash.
Honestly I'd say imo that purists are helping to destroy the wild ecosystem by buying up many pure bred wild caught fish just to keep in a glass box. 9/10 purists are doing nothing to help conserve the wild populations as they aren't releasing any pure bred specimens back out into their nature habitats. Many of us take from the wilderness without giving back and that does hurt the environment immensely.
I never said that hybrids are ruining the market, and don't really care too much about the market. It's the destruction of actual pure species that concerns me. As hybrids continue to proliferate, and as they are spread throughout the hobby by the sort of unethical activity that you correctly describe, they gradually dilute the purity of actual naturally occurring species. It is already difficult or impossible to properly identify many pet store cichlids simply because there are fewer and fewer every day that are genetically pure; far too many contain some genetic material from other species introduced into their lineage by irresponsible breeding practices. Genetic diversity suffers when everything is thrown into the same melting pot.
And, yes, people seem happy to pay a premium for wild-caught fish...but how many of those folks put in the effort to maintain those wild blood lines in a pure state? How many play with them a while, produce some fry, sell those off...to people who will do...what? These buyers are not purists; they are dilettantes, and the damage they do is irreversible. You can't put the genie back into the bottle. Meanwhile, they will move on to the next trendy wild-caught must-have species-du-jour...and the next...and the next...
I truly believe that hybridization is the biggest problem here. Designer fish that can't feed themselves, see where they are going, swim properly or even have normally functioning organs are a self-limiting problem; they will never overpopulate because they are just too dysfunctional. Hybrids are the future and the future looks bleak.
I'm certainly not blaming the fish; I'm blaming the breeders, marketers, and fishkeepers. Their practices are not destroying the market...but the market is destroying nature.
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I understand everyone having different opinions here, but here are my two cents. Everyone can have different desires in the hobby, some of the breeding takes tremendous effort. If you breed goldfish you can be part of a project that has been running for over 1,000 years and still isn't finished. Some see it as similar to the multigenerational projects like building a cathedral or monument. Some of the line breeding is interesting some of it I am not a fan of, but breeders doing these things is part of the experience.
What is hated in some species is perfectly accepted in others. It seems to me if people saw it when they came into the hobby they seem to accept it. Very few people have seen wild platies or mollies in their store, far fewer ever buy them if they see them. Most of our livebearers are crossed every possible way, and no one bats an eye. Announce you are considering the same thing with corydoras and the mobs will come after you. I do like hybrids to be labeled properly.
Aberrant wild fish go for huge prices, but as soon as someone breeds it and makes it available to the masses it is an abomination. I remember when the lightning maroon clownfish popped up everyone wanted it. It was so beautiful there was discussion of auctioning it off. Then it went to a farm was made available and it is no longer respected. The same thing happens with gold and white gar.
The comment that makes me most uncomfortable in this was that purist are ruining the hobby, by buying up pure bred specimens and not putting them back. The issues I have with this are one hobbyist releasing fish back into the wild may not be the best idea. That should be done with strict biosecurity protocols in place. The second issue I have is that we take from the wild without giving back. That ignores the fact that we provide jobs in what can be a sustainable fishery, in areas that don't have a lot of other green industries. This prevents logging and other destructive industries. Look at the work of Project Piabahttps://www.bing.com/search?q=project+piaba&cvid=fca43af39de8465ba3e3d1d3e07d0632&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531. The other thing that this thinking ignores is collection for the hobby is rarely the threat to these fish. It is usually habitat destruction. Look at the cherry barb less than 5% of its habitat is lost, but hundreds of thousands are sold in the US every year. Sure some are albino some are veil tailed, but without this source cherry barbs could leave this planet forever. I do think it is best if hobbyist breed fish in their home countries. Not to destroy wild collection, but to ensure that there is a diversity of fish in your home country when importation eventually gets shut down by those that disapprove of any animal trading. It also provides a backup of fish if a habitat gets destroyed.
The comment about people line breeding and hybridizing for cash seems short sighted to me. I read these comments about people being in this space for the money often on here. Almost every adult does their job for cash, and they try to do a good job so they can get more cash later. You might love your job, but unless you have your needs met elsewhere you are going to find another job as soon as the paychecks stop. Fish farmers worldwide work tirelessly to provide the fish we enjoy (or revile). They provide the volume that makes it possible for a group as specialized as MFK to exist. Without all the fish MFKers don't keep it would be very hard to get shippers to ship a fish, it would be hard to get permits to move them across borders, there wouldn't be affordable tanks because it wouldn't make sense to build a factory, you wouldn't be able to buy a filter off the shelf, and you wouldn't have access to affordable feeds. Most importantly most of us would have never entered this hobby if we didn't stumble by a tank somewhere. I have always said public aquariums are important, but there is no more public aquarium than the one in your LFS, Petsmart, Petco, Meijer, etc.
What is hated in some species is perfectly accepted in others. It seems to me if people saw it when they came into the hobby they seem to accept it. Very few people have seen wild platies or mollies in their store, far fewer ever buy them if they see them. Most of our livebearers are crossed every possible way, and no one bats an eye. Announce you are considering the same thing with corydoras and the mobs will come after you. I do like hybrids to be labeled properly.
Aberrant wild fish go for huge prices, but as soon as someone breeds it and makes it available to the masses it is an abomination. I remember when the lightning maroon clownfish popped up everyone wanted it. It was so beautiful there was discussion of auctioning it off. Then it went to a farm was made available and it is no longer respected. The same thing happens with gold and white gar.
The comment that makes me most uncomfortable in this was that purist are ruining the hobby, by buying up pure bred specimens and not putting them back. The issues I have with this are one hobbyist releasing fish back into the wild may not be the best idea. That should be done with strict biosecurity protocols in place. The second issue I have is that we take from the wild without giving back. That ignores the fact that we provide jobs in what can be a sustainable fishery, in areas that don't have a lot of other green industries. This prevents logging and other destructive industries. Look at the work of Project Piabahttps://www.bing.com/search?q=project+piaba&cvid=fca43af39de8465ba3e3d1d3e07d0632&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531. The other thing that this thinking ignores is collection for the hobby is rarely the threat to these fish. It is usually habitat destruction. Look at the cherry barb less than 5% of its habitat is lost, but hundreds of thousands are sold in the US every year. Sure some are albino some are veil tailed, but without this source cherry barbs could leave this planet forever. I do think it is best if hobbyist breed fish in their home countries. Not to destroy wild collection, but to ensure that there is a diversity of fish in your home country when importation eventually gets shut down by those that disapprove of any animal trading. It also provides a backup of fish if a habitat gets destroyed.
The comment about people line breeding and hybridizing for cash seems short sighted to me. I read these comments about people being in this space for the money often on here. Almost every adult does their job for cash, and they try to do a good job so they can get more cash later. You might love your job, but unless you have your needs met elsewhere you are going to find another job as soon as the paychecks stop. Fish farmers worldwide work tirelessly to provide the fish we enjoy (or revile). They provide the volume that makes it possible for a group as specialized as MFK to exist. Without all the fish MFKers don't keep it would be very hard to get shippers to ship a fish, it would be hard to get permits to move them across borders, there wouldn't be affordable tanks because it wouldn't make sense to build a factory, you wouldn't be able to buy a filter off the shelf, and you wouldn't have access to affordable feeds. Most importantly most of us would have never entered this hobby if we didn't stumble by a tank somewhere. I have always said public aquariums are important, but there is no more public aquarium than the one in your LFS, Petsmart, Petco, Meijer, etc.
Terrific post! I must take exception to the idea that commenting on the greedy aspect of breeding/hybridization shows shortsightedness. Unfortunately, "shortsightedness" might practically be described as Homo sapiens' middle name. The inability and/or unwillingness to look beyond the immediate future, or at most the short span of a single life, is the cause of most of the tremendous affronts we visit upon the environment and ourselves. We live relatively brief lives and spend the majority of our time working and planning for the future a few years or decades away, but our actions can resonate far more widely and far longer than that. It's the nature of the beast. We just aren't built to see the big picture.
Crossing two species of fish that have been independently created by millenia of natural selection by natural processes to fit their own niches in a complex ecosystem...just to make something that looks cool and nobody else has...is a perfect example of this shortsightedness.
While the notion that catching wild fish for the hobby may hold true in situations for very localized rare species, such as certain pupfish from one tiny spring.
In most cases, catching for the hobby barely makes a dent, compared to predation by birds, and other animals (like the humans that also eat fish) hobby fishing is negligible.
View attachment 2A8D6262-3772-4C2B-BE0E-73278431178B.jpeg
In most cases, catching for the hobby barely makes a dent, compared to predation by birds, and other animals (like the humans that also eat fish) hobby fishing is negligible.
View attachment 2A8D6262-3772-4C2B-BE0E-73278431178B.jpeg
I can't make my mind up what looks worse, the garish modern man made fish, or the garish modern man made ornaments, fluorescent substrates and cheap fake plants etc etc. But, as already mentioned, if there's a demand, there will always be a supply for such things.
Whatever next?? Well, compared to some of the monstrosities about, i think this guy looks kinda cute actually, i'd have one, lol.
Whatever next?? Well, compared to some of the monstrosities about, i think this guy looks kinda cute actually, i'd have one, lol.
